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DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
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#Post#: 39709--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: PallasAthena
Date: October 7, 2024, 11:52 am
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My reading of the council response is that VAT registration is
not, in itself, relevant to them but is being used as a proxy
for evidence that the company named on the invoice actually
exists a genuine company in the towing/recovery business. So the
combination of no VAT registration and no street address for the
company has raised their suspicions that it may not be a genuine
recovery company. If they had the VAT number they would be able
to check if it is genuine -
HTML https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-vat-number
- and a street address
they could check in other sources they have access to. An email
address means nothing and it can't be validated that it is the
email address of the towing company. Anyone can set up an email
address.
Why you would go the bother of hiring a fake recovery company
just to avoid their PCN is a mystery known only to the council.
So if you are going to take it further is there other
information of the company's existence you could use? Is it
registered at Companies House? Does it have a website? Evidence
of advertising?
I assume as there is no VAT number no VAT has been included on
the invoice?
#Post#: 39716--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: MrChips
Date: October 7, 2024, 1:36 pm
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Agreed. The local authority manages thousands of PCNs and is
probably familiar with people trying to pull a fast one. No
doubt these are a tiny minority but its strategy seems to be to
try and poke holes in your defence in the hope you will give up
if you are not genuine.
So, stick to your guns. I suspect if you provide more details on
the recovery firm they will back down once they have enough info
to establish they are legit. Be that address, contact details,
whatever...
#Post#: 39718--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: Daim456
Date: October 7, 2024, 1:51 pm
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The Tribunal is decided by an adjudicator who are qualified in
law.
It is a Tribunal of law but is more informal than Court. You
would have the right to get it reviewed if the adjudicator made
an error in law, which will be heard by a different adjudicator
who may be more senior.
And you have the right to appeal to High Court.
#Post#: 39738--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 7, 2024, 3:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
In a court, the council's position has no legs - I can proved
beyond doubt that the car had broken down and needed recovering,
and the council/whoever can offer no counter to that. But, we're
not in a court of law. So that's why I'm seeking opinions (not
necessarily accountable advice)
A car breaking down is not as such a winning defence. The main
issue is whether this was beyond your control. If the fault was
pre-existing and within your knowledge then even accepting all
you've said you could still lose.
Also, what alternatives were available to you rather than
pushing the car into a res bay?
And when was the PCN issued and when was the vehicle removed
i.e. did you make every effort to move the car out of
contravention or was this the next day for example?
I suggest you broaden your approach and post what's been
requested.
Who is the RK and are their DVLA details current?
#Post#: 39749--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: dion_dublin_fan
Date: October 7, 2024, 5:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> A car breaking down is not as such a winning defence. The main
issue is whether this was beyond your control. If the fault was
pre-existing and within your knowledge then even accepting all
you've said you could still lose.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks, good to know. Fault was not pre-existing and I had no
prior knowledge. I think it is reasonably demonstrable it was
beyond my control.
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Also, what alternatives were available to you rather than
pushing the car into a res bay?
>
--- End Quote ---
Leaving it on double yellows in a street that is busy all day -
and not wide enough for a large car to have been able to pass
mine if stationary.
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> And when was the PCN issued and when was the vehicle removed
i.e. did you make every effort to move the car out of
contravention or was this the next day for example?
>
--- End Quote ---
Parking restriction came into force 08:00, PCN issued 09:35, car
removed 10:30. I made every effort to move the car out of the
most flagrant contravention that would have caused a public
nuisance (i.e., in the middle of the road on double yellows).
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Who is the RK and are their DVLA details current?
>
--- End Quote ---
Family member, and yes.
#Post#: 39751--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: dion_dublin_fan
Date: October 7, 2024, 5:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MrChips link ---
>
> Agreed. The local authority manages thousands of PCNs and is
probably familiar with people trying to pull a fast one. No
doubt these are a tiny minority but its strategy seems to be to
try and poke holes in your defence in the hope you will give up
if you are not genuine.
>
> So, stick to your guns. I suspect if you provide more details
on the recovery firm they will back down once they have enough
info to establish they are legit. Be that address, contact
details, whatever...
>
--- End Quote ---
This is the thing: if you Google the recovery guy's mobile
number, email address, it comes up with his Google Maps listing.
I could reasonably ask him to give another invoice with his
address that I could include when I respond to the NtO. That
could mean it's over before it's begun, since they laid down
this bizarre side-quest around VAT and address...
Thanks. And thanks again: if you're the same MrChips from That
Other Forum, then this is the second time you've helped me out
(previously YBJ / no luck).
#Post#: 39758--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: MrChips
Date: October 7, 2024, 6:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If it was a YBJ, almost certainly me!
Ps if you are a Dion Dublin fan, you'll love the @bryansgunn
twitter account.
HTML https://x.com/bryansgunn/status/1842464528879026336?t=qi284a2CCqcOeRTvervLyQ&s=19
#Post#: 39764--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 8, 2024, 2:01 am
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Registered keeper is 'Family member, and yes[DVLA details are
current]'.
In all cases like this, the RK receives the NTO and is liable
for any penalty. They could authorise you in writing to act for
them but they always retain liability and therefore you should
keep them onside as regards next steps.
It's not the best situation when we cannot see the evidence
available/presented to the council (PCN, photos, complete
correspondence(including attachments)) because how can we be
expected to put any response in its correct context?
#Post#: 45088--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: dion_dublin_fan
Date: November 11, 2024, 1:06 pm
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Still no NTO in the post. It's been about 28 days since the end
of the window to pay the PCN.
How long do they typically take to come?
Is there any chance the council simply realises they're wasting
their time and drops it before even sending the NTO?
--
P.S. [member=43]MrChips[/member] - I love that account. "Where's
the cue ball going?!" Pops into my head in some inopportune
moments since seeing that one.
#Post#: 45202--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: mrmustard
Date: November 12, 2024, 7:49 am
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I would like to see a copy of the PCN itself and the informal
rejection (with only the name and address covered up).
Without seeing them I'm out.
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