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#Post#: 39333--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: mickR
Date: October 3, 2024, 5:22 pm
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--- Quote from: dion_dublin_fan link ---
>
> Thanks, I read all of that.
>
> There's no issue in the phrasing or any of the documents or in
the issuance of the PCN, so don't see what's to gain from
posting them.
>
--- End Quote ---
so you read the rules decided to ignore them and then had to
post the entire contents of the letter. ::)
the council state the recovery invoice you supplied has no
business address on it. is that correct?
#Post#: 39577--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: dion_dublin_fan
Date: October 6, 2024, 10:09 am
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--- Quote from: mickR link ---
>
>
> the council state the recovery invoice you supplied has no
business address on it. is that correct?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, that's correct.
To be clear - the question here is about proving the car was
broken down, and whether the stages beyond NtO are likely to be
as anal on VAT registration and invoice address as the responses
to informal appeals have been, as opposed to engaging in a good
faith assessment with the evidence of the car's ability to be
driven or not.
#Post#: 39580--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: dion_dublin_fan
Date: October 6, 2024, 10:15 am
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--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> OK. The only problem is that to get an unbiased judgement,
you'd have to take them to London Tribunals with the full PCN
penalty in play; are you up for this ? The letters you have
received so far are the usual Fob-Off letters we see so often.
These are sent out in response to informal representations. If
you decide to fight them, you must wait for the Notice to Owner,
and submit the same reps, but updated with our help. Reps
against an NtO are usually considered more carefully than
informal reps so they may decide to cancel at that stage.
>
--- End Quote ---
My reason for posting here was to get a sense of whether going
to tribunal was likely to work out in my favour. If it seems it
probably would, then I'm more than happy to. But if people have
experience of the tribunal taking a similarly petty approach to
this as the fob-off responses to the informal appeals, then I'll
not bother.
But, in my mind, the evidence of the car being broken down and
needing recovery is fairly clear.
The question seems to be around the recovery agent's tax
business, which I don't intend to dispute, and am also not
convinced is much proof either way. For example, if I had a
friend with a recovery truck, I could easily have got them to
recover the car for me as a favour. There would be no invoice
whatsoever in that case, but there would still be date-stamped
photo evidence of the recovery having been necessary.
If a tribunal is also going to be hung up on VAT registration,
then it's probably a case of a complaint to a local councillor
instead of pursuing the tribunal.
#Post#: 39585--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: mickR
Date: October 6, 2024, 10:27 am
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I really don't see how the VAT status of a business is of any
relevance as far as a Tribunal is concerned.
A garage with a recovery capability could simply be a sole
trader with no company or VAT registration, but still a legally
bona fide business.
#Post#: 39627--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: Neil B
Date: October 6, 2024, 8:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: dion_dublin_fan link ---
>
> There's no issue in the phrasing or any of the documents or in
the issuance of the PCN, so don't see what's to gain from
posting them. The location of the offence is of no relevance.
>
> The question arises because the council say they will allow an
appeal if the car had broken down. The car had broken down, and
they have seen photos of it being towed. They have also seen an
invoice for it being towed. Yet, they deny the appeal on the
basis of a lack of VAT registration on the part of the towing
agent.
>
> The question is, will my evidence be seen more favourably at
tribunal than at informal appeal?
>
--- End Quote ---
But you haven't shown us anything at all? Or even mentioned what
council is involved.
We can't comment on what an adjudicator would think of something
we haven't seen.
#Post#: 39630--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: dion_dublin_fan
Date: October 7, 2024, 2:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Neil B link ---
>
> [quote author=dion_dublin_fan
link=topic=3334.msg39274#msg39274 date=1727969320]
> There's no issue in the phrasing or any of the documents or in
the issuance of the PCN, so don't see what's to gain from
posting them. The location of the offence is of no relevance.
>
> The question arises because the council say they will allow an
appeal if the car had broken down. The car had broken down, and
they have seen photos of it being towed. They have also seen an
invoice for it being towed. Yet, they deny the appeal on the
basis of a lack of VAT registration on the part of the towing
agent.
>
> The question is, will my evidence be seen more favourably at
tribunal than at informal appeal?
>
--- End Quote ---
But you haven't shown us anything at all? Or even mentioned what
council is involved.
We can't comment on what an adjudicator would think of something
we haven't seen.
[/quote]
OK, this is useful in itself - you're suggesting that an
adjudicator in Doncaster would interpret this differently to an
adjudicator in Swindon or London?
In a court, the council's position has no legs - I can proved
beyond doubt that the car had broken down and needed recovering,
and the council/whoever can offer no counter to that. But, we're
not in a court of law. So that's why I'm seeking opinions (not
necessarily accountable advice) on the way a tribunal or
pre-tribunal assessment might look at it.
Is there anything you don't know about this situation that is
holding you back from expressing an opinion? Happy to share
specifics if they are relevant.
#Post#: 39632--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: dion_dublin_fan
Date: October 7, 2024, 3:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: mickR link ---
>
> I really don't see how the VAT status of a business is of any
relevance as far as a Tribunal is concerned.
> A garage with a recovery capability could simply be a sole
trader with no company or VAT registration, but still a legally
bona fide business.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks.
You're the third person now to express this opinion, so I think
on the balance of it, I'll go ahead with this and wait for the
NtO, then take it forward from there.
#Post#: 39649--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: Neil B
Date: October 7, 2024, 5:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: dion_dublin_fan link ---
>
> Is there anything you don't know about this situation that is
holding you back from expressing an opinion? Happy to share
specifics if they are relevant.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes. The photos you've described and the recovery
receipt/invoice.
It would also help you to show us the full rejection.
#Post#: 39671--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: rs101
Date: October 7, 2024, 7:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Not sure why you're so focused on the VAT number. Their response
points out that the invoice doesn't contain either a VAT number
or a company address. Perhaps if it included the latter, they
might accept it?
"Please be advised, as the documentation does not contain a
company VAT number or a company address, I am unable to
ascertain the validity of the invoice, therefore we would be
looking at upholding this PCN."
#Post#: 39697--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: dion_dublin_fan
Date: October 7, 2024, 10:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rs101 link ---
>
> Not sure why you're so focused on the VAT number. Their
response points out that the invoice doesn't contain either a
VAT number or a company address. Perhaps if it included the
latter, they might accept it?
>
> "Please be advised, as the documentation does not contain a
company VAT number or a company address, I am unable to
ascertain the validity of the invoice, therefore we would be
looking at upholding this PCN."
>
--- End Quote ---
That's my bad: I think either are odd grounds to suggest the
recovery did not take place, given photo evidence. There is an
email address there if they were serious about "ascertaining the
validity of the invoice".
As an edit: I do get that an invoice should really contain an
address. But what I don't get is how that is grounds to suggest
I've staged a bunch of photos of my car being put on a recovery
truck at the exact location the PCN was issued...
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