DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 39263--------------------------------------------------
PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: dion_dublin_fan
Date: October 3, 2024, 8:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi there,
I received a PCN from a London borough whilst parked in a
residents-only permit bay. I had pushed the car there after
having broken down whilst stationary in traffic on the same
road.
When I was recovered, I took many photos of the process (car
being loaded on, car once loaded on - all at the location of the
PCN).
I submitted these along with with the informal appeal against
the PCN, and the appeal was rejected. The rejection said that I
needed to provide an invoice from the recovery agent.
So, I responded to the request and attached the invoice from the
recovery guy. This was then rejected because it did not include
a VAT registration number. I think the recovery agent probably
isn't VAT registered.
Nonetheless, the photos quite clearly show that the car was
broken down to the extent that it needed a recovery vehicle to
move it. I don't understand why the VAT registration of the
person driving the recovery vehicle is of any relevance to
proving that. Surely, if my brother owned a recovery vehicle,
I'd be entitled to ask him to help me, and that wouldn't
generate an invoice of any kind?
The question is, is it worth me taking this forward once I
receive the NtO?
Will this really get held up in the council's favour simply
because the recovery guy wasn't VAT registered, even though the
photo evidence makes it pretty clear that the car was recovered?
After all, this is a PCN appeal not an HMRC investigation...
(FWIW no work was carried out on the car in the end because it
was possible to get it started by refitting a part that had been
knocked out of place, so there's no invoice from a garage.)
#Post#: 39264--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: 666
Date: October 3, 2024, 9:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I too can't see how VAT is relevant.
However, I also find it difficult to believe that anyone could
operate a recovery business without needing to be registered.
#Post#: 39265--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: dion_dublin_fan
Date: October 3, 2024, 9:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I also find that hard to believe, but it is what it is, and
there's nothing I can do about that.
The question is whether the photos of the car going onto the
recovery truck are proof enough that the car broke down and
needed to be recovered.
Is it absolutely necessary that this be proved also with a
VAT-registered invoice? Or will the council likely back down
before the tribunal, based on the photo evidence?
#Post#: 39266--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: October 3, 2024, 9:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Read this and post the documents:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
Council being picky as they probably don't believe you.
#Post#: 39274--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: dion_dublin_fan
Date: October 3, 2024, 10:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, I read all of that.
There's no issue in the phrasing or any of the documents or in
the issuance of the PCN, so don't see what's to gain from
posting them. The location of the offence is of no relevance.
The PCN was issued in good faith - the car was left in a
permit-only bay and had no permit. I'm not disputing that.
The question arises because the council say they will allow an
appeal if the car had broken down. The car had broken down, and
they have seen photos of it being towed. They have also seen an
invoice for it being towed. Yet, they deny the appeal on the
basis of a lack of VAT registration on the part of the towing
agent.
The question is, will my evidence be seen more favourably at
tribunal than at informal appeal?
I'm not looking to pick holes in the correspondence or any other
part of the appeal process. Opinions on the question of how the
tribunal will view the photo + non-VAT invoice are what I am
hoping to seek.
#Post#: 39276--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 3, 2024, 10:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The council are being their usual stupid self. The contravention
is stopping where prohibited, with an exemption for vehicles
unable to proceed such as broken down. There is no requirement
at all that the PCN recipient has to prove anything other than
that the vehicle had to be recovered. The photos and invoice
prove that. The adjudicator decides using the civil law test of
"on the balance of probabilities". Have you got any invoice for
repairs or receipts for parts if you DIYed the car repairs ?
#Post#: 39278--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: October 3, 2024, 10:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm not going to comment without seeing the rejection letter and
invoice except to say there is a formal notice to owner stage
next before tribunal where they often reconsider.
#Post#: 39309--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: dion_dublin_fan
Date: October 3, 2024, 2:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> I'm not going to comment without seeing the rejection letter
and invoice except to say there is a formal notice to owner
stage next before tribunal where they often reconsider.
>
--- End Quote ---
The text of the three letters received from the council, in
order from oldest to most recent, are as follows:
1. This first response followed the initial appeal, in which I
described the situation, included specific times relating to the
sequence of events in the breakdown, and included several photos
showing the car being loaded and secured onto a recovery
vehicle, visibly at the location of the PCN's issue.
"Thank you for contacting us about the above Penalty Charge
Notice (PCN).
The PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked in a
residents’ parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit
or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay
and display ticket issued for that place where required, or
without payment of the parking charge.
Having reviewed your correspondence and the evidence available
to myself, whilst I appreciate that the vehicle may have broken
down, please be advised, we would require documentation in
support of your appeal, before we make an informed decision.
This should take the form of a breakdown report, or towing
invoice, containing the date, time and location of the breakdown
or recovery. It may also be an invoice from a garage who
completed the works that were required or an invoice for the
part, parts or labour that was required.
Please note, providing this evidence will assist in a decision
being made but it should be noted that this does not guarantee
the PCN will be cancelled. Failure to provide the evidence,
could result in the PCN being upheld."
2. This second response followed me uploading the invoice from
the recovery agent as requested - the response is correct in
pointing out that there is not a VAT registration or address,
although there is an email address for the recovery agent.
"Thank you for contacting us about the above Penalty Charge
Notice (PCN).
The PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked in a
residents’ parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit
or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay
and display ticket issued for that place where required, or
without payment of the parking charge.
Having reviewed your correspondence and the evidence available,
whilst I appreciate the invoice you have provided, please note
that we are unable to accept this. Please be advised, as the
documentation does not contain a company VAT number or a company
address, I am unable to ascertain the validity of the invoice,
therefore we would be looking at upholding this PCN.
Leaving a vehicle unattended for a period of time without a
valid permit to park effectively renders the vehicle parked in
contravention and a Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) may issue a
PCN.
It remains the driver's responsibility to ensure that the
vehicle is parked legally at all times.
With that being said, we would have to inform you, the
circumstances described do not warrant the cancellation of the
PCN, and your appeal has been rejected at this stage.
Please see the below images as taken by the CEO whilst issuing
the PCN:
[ the same photos as originally included with the PCN are
repeated in the body of the letter, showing the car in the bay
from front and back, and the bay's 'Resident permit holders
only' sign ]"
3. This third letter came after I responded and questioned why
the VAT registration of the recovery agent was of relevance to
demonstrating whether or not I had broken down:
"Thank you for contacting us about the above Penalty Charge
Notice (PCN).
The PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked in a
residents’ parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit
or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay
and display ticket issued for that place where required, or
without payment of the parking charge.
Having reviewed your most recent correspondence and the evidence
available to myself, whilst I appreciate you may be disappointed
with our decision, please be advised, should you wish to contest
the matter further, I would have to advise to please await the
Notice to Owner to arrive via post. Please do not respond to
this correspondence as it will only delay the appeals process.
The Notice to Owner will establish liability for the PCN and the
grounds under which representations may be made. If
representations are made at this stage and they are rejected,
there will be the right of appeal to an independent Environment
and Traffic Adjudicator. We have now let the case off hold to
allow it to progress to the next stage.
Further correspondence may not be responded to."
The invoice is as the council describes - it does not have an
address or a VAT registration number. It has the company name,
an email address, an invoice number, and in the description of
the service provided, it states my vehicle reg number, the
location it was recovered from (road and postcode), and the
location it was recovered to (road and postcode), the date, the
price, and that it was paid.
The photos I attached to the initial appeal showed (i) the car
loaded onto the recovery truck, taken from in front of the
recovery truck facing backwards, with the bays in which the PCN
offence occurred clearly visible in the background; (ii) the car
loaded onto the truck, with the photo taken from the opposite
angle, with my car's reg plate clearly visible; (iii) the car
parked up outside the garage having been recovered to there;
(iv) the car up on a ramp at the garage.
For what it's worth, I'm not sure (iii) or (iv) are particularly
convincing evidence on their own - since I don't have an invoice
from the garage (since no work was actually carried out), these
could, I guess, have been taken at any time in the past. So I
don't think they come into play going forward, realistically -
it wouldn't be worth labouring that. In any case, we're not
trying to prove that my car got fixed here, we're trying to
prove that it was broken down in the first place, hence why I
couldn't move it from the bay and got a PCN.
#Post#: 39310--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: dion_dublin_fan
Date: October 3, 2024, 2:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> The council are being their usual stupid self. The
contravention is stopping where prohibited, with an exemption
for vehicles unable to proceed such as broken down. There is no
requirement at all that the PCN recipient has to prove anything
other than that the vehicle had to be recovered. The photos and
invoice prove that. The adjudicator decides using the civil law
test of "on the balance of probabilities". Have you got any
invoice for repairs or receipts for parts if you DIYed the car
repairs ?
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks, I had thought this - that they're thinking they might as
well push me along as far as they can, in the hope they get a
free £80 out of me.
Balance of probabilities sounds like it would reasonably favour
me. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
I don't have any invoice for repairs/parts unfortunately -
without going into too much detail, it's a 25 year old car and
the workaround required a bit of scrap metal secured against the
bulkhead to get it going again!
#Post#: 39332--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number
despite photos of recovery supplied
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 3, 2024, 5:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
OK. The only problem is that to get an unbiased judgement,
you'd have to take them to London Tribunals with the full PCN
penalty in play; are you up for this ? The letters you have
received so far are the usual Fob-Off letters we see so often.
These are sent out in response to informal representations. If
you decide to fight them, you must wait for the Notice to Owner,
and submit the same reps, but updated with our help. Reps
against an NtO are usually considered more carefully than
informal reps so they may decide to cancel at that stage.
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 4
DIR Next Page