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#Post#: 39175--------------------------------------------------
s172 NIP but can't remember who was driving
DIR By: PallasAthena
Date: October 2, 2024, 8:45 am
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I need some advice on responding to a s172 Notice of Intended
Prosecution where the driver could have been either me or my
husband but we genuinely don’t remember which of us was driving.
I know that failure to respond to a NIP is a serious offence in
itself and I will ensure I reply in good time.
We have just returned from a touring holiday in our car, driving
some 900 miles in north Wales, Lancashire, Lake District and
Yorkshire Dales. We left home on September 19th, returned
September 30th.
Waiting for us in the post was a NIP from North Wales police
addressed to me as Registered Keeper issued on September 27th
for the alleged offence of “Exceeding the Speed Limit” at 26 mph
in the early afternoon of September 23rd at A548 Greenfield,
Flintshire [the north Wales coast road]. Speed limit not stated
but presumably 20mph.
Although neither of us can recollect where the offence took
place we were on that road at that date and time and I can’t
imagine we have any defence against the allegation that our car
exceeded the speed limit. I expect we missed the sign dropping
the limit from 30 mph to 20 mph. Either I or my husband was
driving, we were both in the car, but despite racking our brains
we cannot remember which of us was driving.
We share the driving when we are on a touring holiday, often
swapping driver each time we stop for a break. One drives, the
other map reads. Both being pensioners we avoid either of us
driving for lengthy periods of time.
All our driving in north Wales was on roads we had never been on
before, routes that were new to us, so both of us would have
been concentrating hard on making sure we in the correct lane
etc for upcoming junctions. We did so much mileage on new roads
in that 10 day period that one bit blurs into another. There was
nothing memorable about the A548 at Greenfield that triggers any
recollection of who was driving, no speed camera light flashed.
I would be able to include with my NIP response copies of
accommodation bookings and petrol receipts to evidence that we
were holidaying.
We both have clean licences, no points/endorsements. Neither of
us have ever attended a speed awareness course. At least 20
years since either of us had a driving conviction. As we have
both retired a speeding conviction would have no employment
implications for us. So no ulterior motive in one of us trying
to avoid serious consequences.
So how best to respond to the NIP?
I’ve read advice here that it is hard to convince the police
that you genuinely don’t know who was driving. And if they then
prosecute for failure to provide driver’s name even harder to
convince magistrates. Is a response based on the above likely to
be sufficient?
Alternatively, if I simply name myself as driver and then later
plead guilty what is the likely outcome?
All thoughts appreciated.
#Post#: 39189--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 NIP but can't remember who was driving
DIR By: Bucksdriver
Date: October 2, 2024, 9:51 am
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Contact the issuing traffic office and ask for any pictures to
try to help identify the driver at the time. Explain why you
need this help as you were both sharing driving and cant
remember at that time who was driving.
Other then that, your likely going o get a speed awareness
course. So if either of you claim the offence, you will pay
80-100 pounds to book the course and can be done online nowadays
or in person and is around 3 hours long.
If you cant find out who was the driver at time via help from
the ticket office, then you can either just have one of you
claim it and take the course.
If you cant decide who was driving and dont want to claim it,
then submit the reasons why to the traffic office and they will
decide if to pursue for the fail to notify offence and you may
have to go to court or they may just drop the case entirely. But
this is a toss up about what they decide to do.
#Post#: 39195--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 NIP but can't remember who was driving
DIR By: PallasAthena
Date: October 2, 2024, 10:15 am
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--- Quote from: Bucksdriver link ---
> Contact the issuing traffic office and ask for any pictures to
try to help identify the driver at the time. Explain why you
need this help as you were both sharing driving and cant
remember at that time who was driving.
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for that suggestion. I have done that.
#Post#: 39197--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 NIP but can't remember who was driving
DIR By: 666
Date: October 2, 2024, 10:20 am
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--- Quote from: Bucksdriver link ---
>
> Contact the issuing traffic office and ask for any pictures to
try to help identify the driver at the time. Explain why you
need this help as you were both sharing driving and cant
remember at that time who was driving.
>
> Other then that, your likely going o get a speed awareness
course. So if either of you claim the offence, you will pay
80-100 pounds to book the course and can be done online nowadays
or in person and is around 3 hours long.
>
> If you cant find out who was the driver at time via help from
the ticket office, then you can either just have one of you
claim it and take the course.
>
> If you cant decide who was driving and dont want to claim it,
then submit the reasons why to the traffic office and they will
decide if to pursue for the fail to notify offence and you may
have to go to court or they may just drop the case entirely. But
this is a toss up about what they decide to do.
>
--- End Quote ---
A toss-up? That would be 50/50 - I'd suggest it's nearer 1/99,
and the OP will almost certainly be referred to court: if it was
so easy everyone would do it and no-one would ever be brought to
justice.
OP - Yes, ask for photos as suggested. Don't mention "evidence",
and you don't need to explain.
The photos are unlikely to help. If they don't, then the usual
advice is simply to nominate either one of you. It must be
unequivocal: do NOT say "We don't know but ...". The outcome
will be the offer of a course or a fixed penalty (£100 and 3
points).
If you don't, the RK will be be charged with failure to furnish,
which is very difficult to defend. Punishment is a much higher
fine, plus surcharge and costs, six points, and an endorsement
code which will see your insurance premiums soar for the next
five years.
#Post#: 39199--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 NIP but can't remember who was driving
DIR By: PallasAthena
Date: October 2, 2024, 10:38 am
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--- Quote from: 666 link ---
> The outcome will be the offer of a course or a fixed penalty
(£100 and 3 points).
--- End Quote ---
From the North Wales Police website it looks like the offer of a
speed awareness course would be the most likely outcome.
HTML https://www.northwales.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/rs/road-safety/speeding/if-youve-received-a-speed-camera-activation-letter-or-notice/
That's looking like a more attractive, and less uncertain, route
than trying to convince them or magistrates that I cannot
remember who was driving (even though that is the truth!)
#Post#: 39250--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 NIP but can't remember who was driving
DIR By: roythebus
Date: October 3, 2024, 3:44 am
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Yes, magistrates can fine you up to £1000, plus "victim
surcharge" plus prosecution costs. It's the cheapest option.
#Post#: 39257--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 NIP but can't remember who was driving
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: October 3, 2024, 6:44 am
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--- Quote from: roythebus link ---
>
> Yes, magistrates can fine you up to £1000, plus "victim
surcharge" plus prosecution costs. It's the cheapest option.
>
--- End Quote ---
Indeed. Although the likely fine (provided you plead guilty) is
a week's net income (capped at £1,000) then reduced by a third
for your guilty plea. The surcharge is 40% of the fine and costs
are around £90. So the most you will pay (if you have an income
of £1,000pw or more) is a bit over £1,000.
However, the deal breaker for most people is the endorsement
code (MS90) that goes with the conviction. This is particularly
nasty as far as insurers are concerned and will see considerably
increased premiums for up to five years. For most people this is
a far greater penalty than the fine.
--- Quote ---
> I would be able to include with my NIP response copies of
accommodation bookings and petrol receipts to evidence that we
were holidaying.
--- End Quote ---
There's no point in doing that. All the police want to know is
who was driving. If you say you do not know, they will prosecute
you for failing to provide the driver's details. There is no
"might" about it as suggested above. That evidence may help if
you decide to defend that charge but the police will not
consider it; that will be done in court. There is a statutory
defence (i.e. one written in law) which says this:
"A person shall not be guilty of an offence...if he shows that
he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have
ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was."
It's a tough hurdle to clear (if it was easy everybody would do
it) and the court will want to see evidence of the "diligence"
you employed to find out who was driving. From your description
that might be difficult for you. Whilst there are occasional
success stories, I think defending that charge more often
results in failure than success.
I would suggest the pragmatic way to deal with this is to obtain
the photographs as suggested. They are very unlikely to help you
identify the driver but the main reason for seeing them is to
make sure nobody else could. If, say, you accepted you were
driving but a photo showed clearly a male driver, the police
would probably ask you to "reconsider" your nomination and it
would be best to avoid that.
Then decide between you who was most likely to have been
driving, return the form and take the course that is almost
certain to be offered.
It's an unfortunate consequence of this legislation that often
sees a far harsher penalty imposed for telling the truth than
perhaps declaring something that you are not certain is true.
There are various schools of thought that argue the legitimacy
of this course of action. Strictly speaking, if you don't know
who was driving you should say so, but with the potential
consequences of doing that being so much harsher, it is little
wonder that most people take a pragmatic approach.
So long as the police do not suspect one of you is trying to
gain an undue advantage (for example if one of you was on nine
points and you named the other just to avoid him or her facing a
"totting up" ban) and so long as the photographs do not clearly
suggest your nomination is incorrect, the overwhelming
likelihood is that your case will simply make its way through
the "sausage machine" without trouble.
#Post#: 39258--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 NIP but can't remember who was driving
DIR By: PallasAthena
Date: October 3, 2024, 6:57 am
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Thank you. I've been conviced by replies and advice that the
best route is the pragmatic one you suggest. I have requested
the photos.
Interestingly the NIP says "If you claim to be unable to
identify the driver ... please use a separate piece of paper to
explain ... so we can consider your response fully." Which
implies prosecution is not inevitable. But I fully accept the
advice here that in practice they almost never accept the
explanation and prosecution is the the almost inevitable
outcome.
#Post#: 39261--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 NIP but can't remember who was driving
DIR By: BertB
Date: October 3, 2024, 7:39 am
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That may be the implication, but these things are like a sausage
factory. Your lack of submission or an equivocal submission will
be noted as no satisfactory response received and it will
automatically progress through to a Single Justice Procedure
Notice. There will be very little human interaction with it
prior to that other than someone ticking a box to make it go to
the next step. From that you can either plead guilty to the
written charges or NG and ask for it to be heard at court. Then
with your NG response you can put down your mitigation/reasons
for wanting to plead not guilty and you may (and I've only seen
this once) get a prosecutor/CPS bod who will look at it before
hand and decide they can't be arsed/not in the interest to
pursue it*.
But as per others, it is 99% certain you will get a day in
court.
Definitely worth going with the most likely driver/winner or
loser of coin toss.
*that particular time was a chap in the middle of a messy break
up. He had evidence that suggested his ex had withheld post from
him and he sent this with his return NG submission. I guess
someone did actually read it and decide he had had a hard enough
time of it recently as he got a NFA letter by return.
#Post#: 40979--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 NIP but can't remember who was driving
DIR By: PallasAthena
Date: October 16, 2024, 5:08 am
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Anway we decided that 'on balance of probabilities' more likely
that my husband was driving so I nominated him. He received his
NIP yesterday and named himself. All well within NIP timescales.
I got the photos from the camera unit and as predicted upthread
they show nothing useful and windscreen glare made it impossible
to make out the driver. Now we await, fingers crossed,
confirmation he can do a speed awareness course.
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