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#Post#: 2637--------------------------------------------------
Greenwich, 34J - Bus Lane - Camera enforcement, woolwich road sw
bound , maryon park 147733
DIR By: j41sal
Date: August 5, 2023, 12:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
hi all
Received this PCN in the post today
Front
HTML https://i.imgur.com/OFckHDb.jpeg
Back
HTML https://i.imgur.com/PsR7PoN.jpeg
location on google street view - this was the council photo
direction with car coming towards camera
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/PqURtvZvjB1JaZy59
I can't add any photos or videos from the council evidence as
greenwich pcn website seems to be down currently
The car changed lanes into the bus lane straight after the bus
stop visible on street view.
Are these signs adequate? signs are start from here start of
the bus lane - the car entered in bus lane after the 2nd bus
stop on the left
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/mQhLHfFUEMiQVsz57
where the car entered into bus lane after bus stop
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4890011,0.0361664,3a,75y,233.83h,75.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk1bGjzChdGfNw0XQdoZh_A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Was wondering whether these signs are adequate,and also the road
markings are not clear - What are your thoughts
Thanks
#Post#: 2668--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, 34J - Bus Lane - Camera enforcement, woolwich
road sw bound , maryon park 147733
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 5, 2023, 6:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If you look back along the road to the previous bus lane, it has
a sign for a bus lane with a bicycle symbol below the bus
symbol: -
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/Z43T2nrqMs9izaKL9
But then all you have are Cycle Lane signs
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/gr2X3z7izbKzdoFE7
and
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/tLmzC5Qa29NnRzcF8
For me, this is extremely poor practice, because bicycles are
allowed in the bus lane, so it is very confusing, especially as
one can still see the road markings for the cycle lane that was
there before the bus lane.See GSV of July 2019 here: -
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/qv6mshWuJAYX2uQ67
It looks like the Highways Department have completely cocked-up
the installation of this bus lane.
Correct signage would have the cycle lane signs replaced with
bus lane signs with a symbol of a bicycle below the bus symbol.
The other aspect is that it was recently discovered that none of
the London bus lane cameras complied with the law, not being
approved by the Secretary of State, and a lot of appeals were
won at London Tribunals. However, as you can imagine with the
potential loss of lots of lovely dosh, there has been a mad dash
by London councils to get them approved. However, whether this
one that they used to whallop you with is so certified, I'm not
sure. Somebody on here may know. If it isn't it is a slam-dunk
win at London Tribunals.
However, are you prepared to take them to London Tribunals ? It
is a double-or-quits gamble because you lose the discount
option.
#Post#: 2673--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, 34J - Bus Lane - Camera enforcement, woolwich
road sw bound , maryon park 147733
DIR By: guest17
Date: August 6, 2023, 1:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Agreed, the only sign relating to a bus lane is way back on the
roundabout:-
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/Lto9sVYfkeYbGuP6A
BUT ---has the signage being changed since August 2021?
The OP will have to get some up to date photos or use a
travelcam to prove inadequate signage.
From GSV it is totally inadequate and thereby unenforceable.
Mike
#Post#: 2681--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, 34J - Bus Lane - Camera enforcement, woolwich
road sw bound , maryon park 147733
DIR By: j41sal
Date: August 6, 2023, 3:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> If you look back along the road to the previous bus lane, it
has a sign for a bus lane with a bicycle symbol below the bus
symbol: -
>
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/Z43T2nrqMs9izaKL9
> But then all you have are Cycle Lane signs
>
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/tLmzC5Qa29NnRzcF8
> and
>
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/tLmzC5Qa29NnRzcF8
> For me, this is extremely poor practice, because bicycles are
allowed in the bus lane, so it is very confusing, especially as
one can still see the road markings for the cycle lane that was
there before the bus lane.See GSV of July 2019 here: -
>
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/qv6mshWuJAYX2uQ67
> It looks like the Highways Department have completely
cocked-up the installation of this bus lane.
>
> Correct signage would have the cycle lane signs replaced with
bus lane signs with a symbol of a bicycle below the bus symbol.
>
> The other aspect is that it was recently discovered that none
of the London bus lane cameras complied with the law, not being
approved by the Secretary of State, and a lot of appeals were
won at London Tribunals. However, as you can imagine with the
potential loss of lots of lovely dosh, there has been a mad dash
by London councils to get them approved. However, whether this
one that they used to whallop you with is so certified, I'm not
sure. Somebody on here may know. If it isn't it is a slam-dunk
win at London Tribunals.
>
> However, are you prepared to take them to London Tribunals ?
It is a double-or-quits gamble because you lose the discount
option.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you Incandescent , the signs are a little confusing and
was wondering whether the bus lane sign
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4898146,0.0384932,3a,40.2y,233.49h,93.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMvrHGIOINlFQzV1pKbuz1g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu<br
/>in the middle of the 2 roads is correct ?
#Post#: 2682--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, 34J - Bus Lane - Camera enforcement, woolwich
road sw bound , maryon park 147733
DIR By: j41sal
Date: August 6, 2023, 3:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MMV Redux link ---
>
> Agreed, the only sign relating to a bus lane is way back on
the roundabout:-
>
>
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/MCa11FgoyYY1DEnu7
>
> BUT ---has the signage being changed since August 2021?
>
> The OP will have to get some up to date photos or use a
travelcam to prove inadequate signage.
>
> From GSV it is totally inadequate and thereby unenforceable.
>
> Mike
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks Mike, I will try to get a video today of the road
starting from the previous roundabout this evening and upload on
here
#Post#: 2688--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, 34J - Bus Lane - Camera enforcement, woolwich
road sw bound , maryon park 147733
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 6, 2023, 4:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1167140/approved-devices-granted-to-local-authorities.ods
They do have a new certificate since February. Only Bromley and
Hackney do not have. The latter will sort it out shortly:
their manufacturer has one but the council doesn't!
The two cases DNCed by members of pepipoo were taken to the
Tribunal and Greenwich claimed staff shortage. In fact, they
had no certificate at all though their NORs said they did! This
story will develop.
#Post#: 2701--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, 34J - Bus Lane - Camera enforcement, woolwich
road sw bound , maryon park 147733
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 6, 2023, 6:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Video:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4HlrmJ7w2k
The signage angle looks solid to me, see clause 18(1)(c) of
LATOR 1996:
[indent]
Traffic signs
18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the
order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to
secure—
[indent]
(a) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near
the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order
making authority may consider requisite for securing that
adequate information as to the effect of the order is made
available to persons using the road;
(b) the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order
remains in force; and
(c) in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the
application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of
existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to
avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong
positions.[/indent]
[/indent]
Also if a council officer is required to attend the hearing, are
they likely to turn up? I somehow doubt it.
#Post#: 2761--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, 34J - Bus Lane - Camera enforcement, woolwich
road sw bound , maryon park 147733
DIR By: j41sal
Date: August 6, 2023, 4:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi evening all,
Manage to get a video of the drive. Seems the road works has
been ongoing for some time along the whole road in general with
signs "bus lane closed" prior to my video starting, should have
taken a video but didn't know how far back to go or how useful
that might be.
Please see video, seems the signs are the same and the drawing
of cycles? In the middle of the bus lane next to the bus stop.
30 secs into video if want to skip straight to start signs
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruJbuylBrZM
#Post#: 2774--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, 34J - Bus Lane - Camera enforcement, woolwich
road sw bound , maryon park 147733
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 6, 2023, 6:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Your video shows bus lane signs on the offside, which seems to
address the main issue around adequacy.
At this point the camera approval issue might be the strongest
point, but we'll have to wait to confirm the make and model of
the camera. The fact that the council has a recent certificate
is not conclusive, as illustrated in the parking case of Imran
Akhtar Ali v London Borough of Redbridge (2230298285, 05 August
2023)
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1UxaHZVpI32Hu5h0bBjbJ80lbPXmmqsE0&export=inline.
Another angle is that the wrong location is stated on the PCN:,
the PCN says Maryon Park but the CCTV camera is on South Lake
Roundabout, and the bus lane in question is on the part of
Woolwich Road between Charlton Lane and South Lake Roundabout,
which is not adjacent to Maryon Park at all.
Give others a couple of days to comment but I'm minded to draft
something based on the location issue, and while we wait for the
informal rejection I should get confirmation of the camera make
and model.
#Post#: 2820--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, 34J - Bus Lane - Camera enforcement, woolwich
road sw bound , maryon park 147733
DIR By: j41sal
Date: August 7, 2023, 8:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> Your video shows bus lane signs on the offside, which seems to
address the main issue around adequacy.
>
> At this point the camera approval issue might be the strongest
point, but we'll have to wait to confirm the make and model of
the camera. The fact that the council has a recent certificate
is not conclusive, as illustrated in the parking case of Imran
Akhtar Ali v London Borough of Redbridge (2230298285, 05 August
2023)
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1UxaHZVpI32Hu5h0bBjbJ80lbPXmmqsE0&export=inline.
>
> Another angle is that the wrong location is stated on the
PCN:, the PCN says Maryon Park but the CCTV camera is on South
Lake Roundabout, and the bus lane in question is on the part of
Woolwich Road between Charlton Lane and South Lake Roundabout,
which is not adjacent to Maryon Park at all.
>
> Give others a couple of days to comment but I'm minded to
draft something based on the location issue, and while we wait
for the informal rejection I should get confirmation of the
camera make and model.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you CP, would you mind to see if the drive video youtube
upload can be embedded into the post for some reason my post
didn't come out right.
Well noticed regarding the location as I didn't think it was
that important as it was somewhat still nearby.
Would you need me to do anything - let me know? thank you for
your help :)
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