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#Post#: 38139--------------------------------------------------
Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore
Street, Hertford
DIR By: steamingbanana
Date: September 24, 2024, 12:11 pm
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Dear All - I'm a newbie on here - and only found this website
due to the fact that I've managed to get a PCN for exactly the
same reason as the OP on this thread - and I notice that their
tribunal was lost just a few months ago.
The only salient difference in my case is that I am not a blue
badge holder.
The OP's original photos are still valid and relevant - nothing
has changed other than I parked there and got a PCN - I am only
at the stage of the PCN being on my windscreen when I returned
from a short walk away from my car.
I have lived locally for many years - and prior to Covid, this
particular space used to be a short term free parking space
during the day - limited to 30 mins parking (from memory) -
after a certain time (630pm I think) it became free parking for
no limit until the next morning. And it was marked with the
standard white dotted lines around the spaces.
So fast forward to a recent Friday night. I was looking for a
parking space - came across this free bay - no road markings to
suggest it was loading bay or disabled (I am used to these words
being painted on the road) - so I parked up - and went about my
business - I returned around 20 mins later to find to my
astonishment said PCN - code 45, parking on taxi rank. I was
stupified - and was looking around for road markings to show
this - especially as I believed that the town's taxi rank was
around 300 metres away - around a couple of corners. That's when
I saw the upright sign on the pavement. So, yes, just like the
OP I did not check this before parking - but having read the
advice given on the OP's thread - I would adhere to the belief
that there should be some sort of "warning" to show that the
shared space is "prohibited" at certain points - instead it
seems the road markings are set out at the "no prohibition"
level - and it is done to the driver to look out for signs
without being warned to do so.
Anyway - I did a bit of Googling and found similar "guidance" on
signs to the previous advice -
HTML https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c78f895e5274a0ebfec719b/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf
I assume the above is "up to date" - and the bit that seemed to
be relevant to my case is:
"13.18 Parking and loading bays with prohibition of waiting and
loading at
certain times
13.18.1.  Where a parking or loading bay does not
operate continuously, and there is a
prohibition of waiting at certain times (e.g. during peak
hours), a multi‑panel sign (see
Figure 13-51 and Figure 13-52) should be used. This generally
comprises either two or three
panels depending on whether there is a prohibition of loading.
The upper panel is yellow and
gives details of the waiting restrictions. It is based on the
sign described in 13.4.8. The centre
panel, if any, will include details of the loading prohibition
as described in 13.4.12. The lower
panel gives details of the parking or loading conditions. It may
indicate limited waiting, permit
parking, an electric vehicle recharging point, disabled badge
holder parking, pay and display
parking, voucher parking, a loading bay, shared‑use
parking or disc zone parking. It has the
same design as one of the signs described previously in this
section and therefore may include
a multi‑panel shared‑use bay. Examples of parking
place signs that also indicate waiting
and loading prohibitions are shown in Figure 13-51. The time
periods for parking and for the
prohibition of waiting should not overlap.
13.18.2.  The sign should be used with a parking bay
appropriate to the lower panel, together
with a single yellow line running through the bay to indicate
the prohibition of waiting and, if
appropriate, single kerb marks to indicate a prohibition of
loading. Where the single yellow
line continues beyond the bay, and the upright signs indicate
different waiting restrictions, a
transverse mark referred to in 13.4.4 is not required. The end
of the bay is sufficient to indicate
a change in the restrictions. Examples of upright signs and road
markings are shown in
Figure 13-52."
So 13.18.2 states the sign "should be used with parking
bay.......single yellow line....etc"
So - does "should" constitute "must"?
Clearly the previous tribunal seemed to rule that the yellow
line was not "required" - so based on that can I form an
argument to win an appeal?
Having read the previous thread above, I guess that user
[member=1]cp8759[/member] is someone useful on these forums.
I don't know the protocols of "alerting" that user to my thread
- I might try to PM if I don't get any responses within the next
few days.
Happy to get the help of anyone on this forum though - and most
grateful.
#Post#: 38168--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore
Street, Hertford
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: September 24, 2024, 2:06 pm
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Please to have a read of
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and start your own thread (forum rule is one case per thread),
and post there
a brief account of the circumstances, revising what you have
written here,
both sides of the unredacted PCN,
any council photos,
and a GSV link to the location.
By all means reference this thread with a link to it in your own
thread.
#Post#: 38210--------------------------------------------------
Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore
Street, Hertford
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: September 24, 2024, 6:54 pm
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[member=2834]steamingbanana[/member] I've split this topic out
because we don't hijack other people's threads no matter how
similar a case might be.
You need to add all the information John U.K. has listed above.
#Post#: 38294--------------------------------------------------
Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore
Street, Hertford
DIR By: steamingbanana
Date: September 25, 2024, 11:13 am
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Firstly – apologies for not reading the newbie guide to setting
up a new thread – and secondly thanks to John UK and CP8759 for
their advice and for setting up this new thread.
As advised, the link to a very similar situation is below.
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/east-herts-council-code-45-parked-on-a-taxi-rank-fore-street-hertford/
The Google Street view is as follows:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/uQJB82nwPtYHGSKF8
I was parked in the same position (albeit I was parked about two
feet forward, right up to the end of bay white line) as the
small Citroen car. The pavement restriction sign is behind
(where I parked) and just behind the van that is parked in the
GSV photo. When I parked up I left my car and walked forward –
i.e. I did not walk past or even see the sign.
My first post in this thread explains my circumstance in some
detail. In order to summarise it slightly, I received a PCN from
East Herts Council – code 45 – parking in a taxi rank – or
violating the “no waiting” restriction.
I do not have a blue badge – so that is the only difference
between my case and the previous poster’s case that I linked to
above.
I would welcome some advice as to how I can successfully appeal
– given that the previous poster lost at tribunal. I am still
somewhat surprised that the tribunal did not find that the lack
of a yellow line in the parking bay (alerting people to the
restrictive element of the mixed use bay) did not constitute it
being a good reason to quash the original PCN – and clearly if
that is indeed the case (i.e. no yellow line is mandatory – even
though the guidance I pointed to in post 1 of this thread
suggested that such a shared use bay “should” have a yellow
line) – then I would have little chance of successfully
appealing.
However, I am open to your expert opinions and advice.
I tried to update a photo of the restriction sign previously and
got an error message saying “uploads full/file too large/please
contact administrator” – and it also seemingly lost all of my
message that I had typed out – so this is a second attempt – if
my other message miraculously reappears and this looks like a
duplicate – I apologise. However, the relevant sign is exactly
the same as the photos provided in the previous thread (linked
to above) – a triple sign – no waiting Fri&Sat 6pm-8am (except
taxis) on top, Loading restrictions (Mon-Sat 8am-6pm) in the
middle, and Parking at other times.
At the moment, I don’t have access to a scanner – so no PCN as
yet. Will endeavour to upload tomorrow.
I also don’t have any Council photos – as I have only recently
received the PCN on my windscreen – but I was hoping to get some
speedy advice so that if necessary I could take advantage of the
discount period.
#Post#: 38301--------------------------------------------------
Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore
Street, Hertford
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: September 25, 2024, 12:00 pm
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--- Quote ---
> When I parked up I left my car and walked forward – i.e. I did
not walk past or even see the sign.
--- End Quote ---
You parked on what GSV shows is a clearly marked bay, yet did
not go to look for, and read, the sign for the bay, why ?
#Post#: 38314--------------------------------------------------
Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore
Street, Hertford
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: September 25, 2024, 12:54 pm
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I think the bay must have a standard 75mm yellow line to
indicate a part-time waiting restriction. The case that was lost
argued for a 200mm line but isn't that used for a no-stopping
clearway.
#Post#: 38345--------------------------------------------------
Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore
Street, Hertford
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: September 25, 2024, 4:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I think you're right, so the OP has a valid appeal argument, but
I suspect will only see this tested at adjudication.
#Post#: 38396--------------------------------------------------
Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore
Street, Hertford
DIR By: steamingbanana
Date: September 26, 2024, 7:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi - can an administrator help me out please - I try to upload
docs (the PCN) - and get the following message:
"The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or
contact an administrator." [member=1]cp8759[/member]
My original comment that I wrote has also disappeared - but I
did keep a copy - so this is my original response:
Hi, Many thanks for responses to date.
To answer the question about why I didn't look at the sign -
despite parking in a "bay" - that was more or less covered in my
first post - which was a bit of a ramble - and I forgot to
summarise in post 3 - after my new thread had been set up -
basically the reason was my understanding that normal "ok to
park bays" in the town I have lived near for many years were
painted white - Taxi ranks are painted yellow with the word
TAXIS on the road in yellow - and loading bays and Disabled bays
tend to have the words on the road - or if not - loading bays
tend to be "single space bays" - so the pavement side is very
close by - basically there as you open your driver's door.
I will try to upload the PCN now - albeit I had problems
uploading photos of the pavement sign the other day.
Thanks again,
#Post#: 38397--------------------------------------------------
Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore
Street, Hertford
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: September 26, 2024, 7:07 am
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Please follow the instructions in the Read this First sticky
(link in Reply#1)
#Post#: 38436--------------------------------------------------
Re: East Herts Council, code 45 Parked on a taxi rank, Fore
Street, Hertford
DIR By: steamingbanana
Date: September 26, 2024, 9:10 am
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HTML https://i.imgur.com/Ji2UR0d.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/NmpQEAU.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/zXN81eh.jpeg
Thanks for your help again John UK
Hopefully the above works ok.
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