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#Post#: 2603--------------------------------------------------
PCN 62 - Croydon Council - Parking on a footpath or on other
than carriageway, Croydon
DIR By: CPBadger
Date: August 5, 2023, 3:41 am
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Good morning,
I previously posted this topic on PePiPoo and had some very
useful responses, on the strength of which I decided to take the
council on. Unfortunately now I need to respond to the Council
my original thread seems to have disappeared so I've lost the
responses! So I'd be very grateful for any suggestions.
I was parked in a private estate which is served by a public
road, on the intersection between the public road and a private
road which provides access to the garages. It is where the
footpath of the public road would be if the private road didn't
exist. I was given a PCN 62 for 'parking on a footpath or on
other than carriageway'.
HTML https://ibb.co/VtRrzfP
HTML https://ibb.co/6bSn4Jc
HTML https://ibb.co/xGg3hYV
HTML https://ibb.co/ZK6JSXT
HTML https://ibb.co/7S0YFmr
HTML https://ibb.co/7kcFd5G
HTML https://ibb.co/GsNVG9F
Street View:
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/Ce9qZGpUNLFmuyYL8
Location:
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/4zNjxiyFFsjbuck96
My position is that clearly the private road meets the
definition of a carriageway (and consequently cannot also be a
footpath). As the private road is fully connected to the public
road with no barriers or signs to indicate that it is private or
that it is anything other than a continuous carriageway, parking
on the intersection of the two cannot be considered to be
parking on a footpath.
It is unreasonable to think that without any signage residents
(or other members of the public) will understand that this
section of the road is considered to be a footpath. Looking at
historic google photos, 2 of the 5 photos show cars parked in
this space, which supports my position.
Grateful for any cases, definitions or arguments (with links if
possible) to support my position. I have a week or so to
respond.
CPBadger
#Post#: 2618--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN 62 - Croydon Council - Parking on a footpath or on other
than carriageway, Croydon
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: August 5, 2023, 9:24 am
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Original post on PPP
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=150047&hl=
I must say that IMO this is a crossover leading to the private
road/driveway and as such part of the main highway but not
regarded as carriageway... no different to parking on a
crossover into someone's drive or a car park.
But that is my opinion and there is certainly scope to argue as
this is a bit more then a car park or driveway
#Post#: 2622--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN 62 - Croydon Council - Parking on a footpath or on other
than carriageway, Croydon
DIR By: guest179
Date: August 5, 2023, 9:45 am
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+1.
As I posted on Pepipoo, if the authority's view is that you were
parked on a footway then the only footway must be that area
bounded by the parallel arcs of inlaid stones. Therefore, as
this gives vehicle access to a carriageway the 'footway' must be
a vehicle crossover. In which case the council would have
records of installing this crossover.
Yeah!
#Post#: 2635--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN 62 - Croydon Council - Parking on a footpath or on other
than carriageway, Croydon
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: August 5, 2023, 12:08 pm
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+2 you are parked on a junction alongside a pavement, bad
parking but not something the council can do you for
#Post#: 2714--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN 62 - Croydon Council - Parking on a footpath or on other
than carriageway, Croydon
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 6, 2023, 8:46 am
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This was my original reply:
--- Quote from: cp8759 date ---
>
> This is a very interesting case that raises multiple complex
points of law. The starting point is the definition of a "road"
found at section 142 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984:
>
> [indent]
> in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any
other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges
over which a road passes, and[/indent]
>
> If the road is not adopted it might not be a highway, but it
can still be a road to which the public has access. I certainly
cannot see any physical barrier or signage indicating that
members of the public cannot walk up and down that road as they
wish.
>
HTML > In [url=http://"
HTML http://bit.ly/3lPvv3Q"]Bowen
& Ors v Isle of
Wight Council [2021] EWHC 3254 (Ch)[/url] the High Court
explained at 49 that:
>
> [indent]In my judgment, a road will be a "road to which the
public has access", and thus within the definition of "road" in
section 142 of the 1984 Act, provided that the general public do
as a matter of fact exercise access to it and provided that
those members of the public "have not obtained access either by
overcoming a physical obstruction or in defiance of prohibition
express or implied" (in the words of Lord Sands in Harrison v
Hill, as approved and applied by the Divisional Court). The
enquiry is thus essentially a factual one. If the conditions are
satisfied, it is, as the Divisional Court sought—apparently
unsuccessfully—to make clear in Cox v White, irrelevant to
enquire further whether the presence of the public on the road
was merely by the tolerance of the owners or whether the
tolerance is to be taken to have given implicit permission. The
simplicity of the resulting test is welcome, for at least two
reasons: first, it avoids the need for courts, when considering
such matters as motoring offences, to become embroiled in, or
confused by, subtle distinctions regarding when an owner's
inaction does and does not imply permission; second, it avoids
importing into the statutory definition a distinction that is
wholly irrelevant to the statutory purpose of providing for the
safety of those who may reasonably be expected to be on roads
and affected by what happens on them.[/indent]
>
> The "private" road quite clearly appears to be a road to which
the public have access, and if it comes to it you and your
neighbours can easily give evidence about this.
>
> I would make a very simple challenge:[indent]
>
> Dear London Borough of Croydon,
>
> The CEO's photos clearly show that my vehicle was parked on
the carriageway of the unnamed service road that leads to the
front doors of numbers 49 to 57 Eskmont Ridge, and to a number
of garages. While I appreciate I was parked right at the
junction, this is not in itself unlawful and it does not mean
that I was parked on the footway. I trust you will now cancel
the PCN and have words with the CEO about this overzealous
enforcement.
>
> Yours faithfully,[/indent]
>
--- End Quote ---
Council response:
HTML https://gcdnb.pbrd.co/images/6UaHw3trQaK2.png
Have you now got a Notice to Owner? If so, please post it up.
#Post#: 2732--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN 62 - Croydon Council - Parking on a footpath or on other
than carriageway, Croydon
DIR By: CPBadger
Date: August 6, 2023, 11:24 am
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Thanks all, much appreciated.
I would argue that to the eye this looks more like a carriageway
than a crossover because there is no ramp, there is such a wide
entrance point and the road is not signed as 'private'. Also on
one side the pavement doesn't have a dropped kerb onto the
crossover - it is instead directed from the pavement onto the
public road.
With this in mind, is there a requirement for how 'clear and
obvious' a crossover must be in order to be considered as such?
Agree it was bad parking. It was only there for 30 mins because
I was blocked by the binmen.
Best regards,
CPBadger
#Post#: 2733--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN 62 - Croydon Council - Parking on a footpath or on other
than carriageway, Croydon
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 6, 2023, 11:36 am
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You posted the informal rejection on pepipoo on 18 July (though
you've hidden the date of issue for some reason), have you
received a Notice to Owner?
#Post#: 2734--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN 62 - Croydon Council - Parking on a footpath or on other
than carriageway, Croydon
DIR By: guest179
Date: August 6, 2023, 11:53 am
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[member=367]CPBadger[/member], we're not saying it is a
crossover, the argument is that if the council claim it's
footway then it must be a vehicle crossover because
self-evidently it [assists] 'vehicles entering or leaving the
carriageway across the footway..' to the garages.
Of course it's not a crossover, it's a carriageway giving access
to the garages, but the council have got to be faced with the
stupidity of their position which is unavoidable by extension of
the argument in their initial rejection!
#Post#: 2929--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN 62 - Croydon Council - Parking on a footpath or on other
than carriageway, Croydon
DIR By: CPBadger
Date: August 8, 2023, 2:56 pm
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Thank you, I was confused about the definition of 'crossover'.
All clear now!
Yes cp8759, I've now received a Notice to Owner, which I'll
respond to this week.
Many thanks,
CPBadger
#Post#: 2930--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN 62 - Croydon Council - Parking on a footpath or on other
than carriageway, Croydon
DIR By: CPBadger
Date: August 8, 2023, 3:25 pm
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Here is the Notice to Owner:
HTML https://ibb.co/d26x1SD
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