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DIR Return to: Speeding and other criminal offences
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#Post#: 37767--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: September 22, 2024, 4:46 am
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--- Quote ---
> Everywhere I’ve read there is no definite on when the 6 months
timescales start and end.
> Does it start with the first s172 request +29 days
--- End Quote ---
The offence is committed 28 days after the s172 request for
driver's details is served. This is 2 working days after it was
posted (unless the contrary is proved). So they have six months
from that date to begin proceedings.
--- Quote ---
> Or depending on how many letters they send out they can pick
at date off one of them?
--- End Quote ---
No they can't do that. There was a case in the Scottish High
Court where (IIRC) the police had issued a written s172 request
to the keeper of a vehicle and, some time later, the keeper was
visited by the police the make the same enquiry. They issued
proceedings under s172 which was within six months of the
personal visit, but outside six months from the date of written
request.
The court ruled that, providing there was no reason to make a
subsequent request (because, for example, the police had been
given a wrong address for the keeper) the first request
determines the date by which proceedings must be taken.
Whilst Scottish rulings are not binding on courts in E&W (and
vice versa) it would be persuasive because it would mean the
police could circumvent the six month rule potentially
indefinitely by making repeated requests.
So you actually have details of the NIP and s172 request which
was sent to you including when was it dated?
#Post#: 37813--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: Just234
Date: September 22, 2024, 9:10 am
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--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> [quote]
> The court ruled that, providing there was no reason to make a
subsequent request (because, for example, the police had been
given a wrong address for the keeper) the first request
determines the date by which proceedings must be taken.
>
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> So you actually have details of the NIP and s172 request which
was sent to you including when was it dated?
>
--- End Quote ---
Perfect
I am the registered keeper and the bundle of paperwork I’ve been
provided by the court has my correct address and has the date of
the NIP sent on the 12/04/2023
When you say proceedings must begin - I have a document ‘postal
requisition’ which is dated 11/12/2023
Then I have a SJPN with a postal date of 16/01/2024 and written
on there underneath the FtF is charge date of 10/01/2024
So what date and what document means ‘proceedings have begun’
#Post#: 37816--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: September 22, 2024, 9:24 am
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Proceedings must be instigated within 6 months of the alleged
offence. This is done when the necessary documents were issued.
They either were or they weren't.
You appear to have at least 2 conflicting sets of documents and
dates. Which is unusual. If these are the only such documents
that were issued, then it would appear to be out of time. As
there are already seemingly conflicting documents and dates, it
would not be prudent to rule out earlier documents having been
issued in time.
You can put the prosecution to proof that the charge was
instigated in time, but other than contacting them and asking
nicely, there is no right to see the evidence in advance.
#Post#: 37829--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: Just234
Date: September 22, 2024, 10:19 am
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Thankyou
When you say
‘This is done when the necessary documents were issued.’
What are the necessary documents?
Please can you expand on which documents and dates you see as
conflicting.
And you say ‘contact the prosecution’
Are you saying I contact the court prior to completing the
online form I’ve been instructed to do or is this something I
ask later down the line.
#Post#: 37834--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: September 22, 2024, 10:35 am
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HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/id/ukpga/1980/43
#Post#: 37860--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: Just234
Date: September 22, 2024, 1:52 pm
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--- Quote from: andy_foster link ---
>
>
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/id/ukpga/1980/43
>
--- End Quote ---
That link isn’t really that helpful unfortunately as it in no
way relates to what I was trying to get you to explain from your
words in your post.
If you do have the time please can you let me know what is the
necessary paperwork that must be issued within 6 months of the
alleged offence.
Or if anyone else can help with that question it would be much
appreciated.
#Post#: 37865--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: September 22, 2024, 2:27 pm
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The written charge.
#Post#: 37908--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: Just234
Date: September 23, 2024, 2:41 am
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--- Quote from: Southpaw82 link ---
>
> The written charge.
>
--- End Quote ---
Should I have received a ‘written charge’ in the post?
I’m just trying to work out which document a written charge is.
And to clarify which date I need to be aware of.
I have no document with the name ‘written charge’ on it. I have
a ‘police report:section s172 offence’ and a postal requisition.
Is either of them the written charge? Both of these are dated
11/12/2023
On the police report within the witness statement section it
states
‘on 22/11/2023 I checked the FPU system ….. absence of record or
reply no reply recieved’
‘A requisition was issued.’
But that requisition is not dated until 11/12/2023
And to confuse me even more it says in the SJPN dated 16/01/2024
(which I gather is not the ‘written charge’) it says charge date
is 10/01/2024
#Post#: 37918--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: September 23, 2024, 5:12 am
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It sounds like the written charge (which will be something like
“on [date] you failed to furnish the details of the driver of
vehicle [VRM] contrary to s 172 etc”. The charge date seems to
be 10/01/24.
#Post#: 37933--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: September 23, 2024, 8:07 am
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--- Quote from: Just234 link ---
>
> Perfect
> I am the registered keeper and the bundle of paperwork I’ve
been provided by the court has my correct address and has the
date of the NIP sent on the 12/04/2023
>
> When you say proceedings must begin - I have a document
‘postal requisition’ which is dated 11/12/2023
> Then I have a SJPN with a postal date of 16/01/2024 and
written on there underneath the FtF is charge date of 10/01/2024
>
> So what date and what document means ‘proceedings have begun’
>
--- End Quote ---
OK - I didn't realise you had previously mentioned that you
already had a copy of the NIP you never received originally - I
thought you were using 12 April 2023 as the date you assumed it
had been sent, not that you knew that that was when it was sent.
My mistake. Apologies.
If you are confirming that you are the RK and that your NIP was
sent to you at your correct address on 12 April 2023, then I
think Andy Foster has already answered your question.
ie the offence of failing to identify would have been committed
on or around 14 May 2023. So the police would have had until 6
months later - on or around 14 November 2023 - in which to
charge you with failing to identify. If they only just got
round even to checking whether you had replied or not on 22
November 2023, they would seem on the face of it to be out of
time. Even more so if the date you have been given for the
"written charge" is 10 January 2024 - nine months after the date
of the NIP that was sent to you, so almost two whole months
late.
But see what others say. I'd have thought it quite unusual for
the police to charge someone so late, but who knows...?
(My comments assume the info and dates you have provided are
accurate. I note that you did say in the previous Reply #14
that "I'm sorry I don’t know how to word things properly and my
memory/processing is not great. I keep having to read and re
read and it’s confusing for me." Somebody has already suggested
that it might be a good idea to post up redacted copies of the
NIP/172 and the SJPN you have received)
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