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DIR Return to: Speeding and other criminal offences
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#Post#: 37707--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: September 21, 2024, 8:39 am
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When did you receive the s 172 notice? If you didn’t receive it,
do you know when it was sent to you? Are you the registered
keeper?
#Post#: 37709--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: September 21, 2024, 8:42 am
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An s. 172 offence is committed at the expiration of 28 days
beginning with the date of service of the NIP (or notice
requiring information under s. 172).
If the NIP was sent to you on 12/04/2023, it would be deemed
served (unless the contrary is proven) on 14/04/2023 and the s.
172 offence committed on 11/05/2023.
#Post#: 37722--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: Just234
Date: September 21, 2024, 11:34 am
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Thankyou
So am I right in thinking that that then means the the offence
being committed in May, the Postal requisition dated 11/12/23 is
outside of the 6 month window?
#Post#: 37724--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: September 21, 2024, 12:12 pm
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So, a postal requisition was issued on 11/12/2023 and a summons
was issued on 16/01/2024, which was also a written charge.
And you are asking us if December is more than 6 months after
May.
As I said previously, if you tell us what happened, we will tell
you how the law applies. If you want to be told how the law
applies so that you can work it out for yourself, the OU do law
courses.
#Post#: 37725--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: September 21, 2024, 12:33 pm
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--- Quote from: Just234 link ---
>
> [quote author=Southpaw82 link=topic=3196.msg37659#msg37659
date=1726864803]
> For an offence committed on 29/08/23 they have until the
following February to commence pro, so they were well in time in
January.
>
--- End Quote ---
This is what I’m trying to work out - if I was caught speeding
04/23 then given 28 days to respond my failure to respond
offence would be on the 29th day so 05/23
Why have they then recorded my failure to respond offence as
08/23 ?
[/quote]
You seem to be assuming that s172 request was sent to you
immediately (or shortly) after the alleged speeding offence.
But
how do you know when your s172 request was sent to you if you
never received it?
How do you know that your s172 request wasn't sent to you at the
end of July?
Sorry if I've missed this from earlier in the thread, but are
you the Registered Keeper with the DVLA, and if you are, is your
address on the car's V5C correct? If you aren't the Registered
KeeperK, who is?
The s172 request issued to you that you never received might not
be the first in the chain...
Edit: To clarify further for you, the first NIP/s172 after a
speeding offence has to be served on the Registered Keeper (RK)
of the vehicle within 14 days of the offence. The RK then has
28 days in which to identify the driver.
If your car is a company car or a lease car, you are almost
certainly not the RK so the first NIP/s172 will not have been
sent to you, but to the RK. Depending on how many different
people or companies there are between you and the RK, you may
not receive your NIP/s172 request until several months after the
original speeding offence if each person takes the full 28 days
to reply.
Do you see how, if you are not the RK, your failure to identify
offence could be committed several months after the date of the
speeding?
#Post#: 37751--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: itsnotmwyouno
Date: September 21, 2024, 5:34 pm
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The failure to furnish is also a far more serious offence with 6
points minimum penalty. You basically have to decide whether
you want to pursue the fail to furnish which is possible but
often fraught with difficulties, or following the stat dec and
re prosecution of both offences, do a plea bargain to accept the
speeding charge if the FtF is dropped. They nearly always
oblige.
#Post#: 37756--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: roythebus
Date: September 22, 2024, 2:00 am
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I hope the OP has taken note of Andy Foster's comment above
about the driving ban. Ban means Ban. DO NOT drive until the ban
has been lifted or you will be in deeper do-do if caught.
#Post#: 37758--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: Just234
Date: September 22, 2024, 3:29 am
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--- Quote from: itsnotmwyouno link ---
>
> The failure to furnish is also a far more serious offence with
6 points minimum penalty. You basically have to decide whether
you want to pursue the fail to furnish which is possible but
often fraught with difficulties, or following the stat dec and
re prosecution of both offences, do a plea bargain to accept the
speeding charge if the FtF is dropped. They nearly always
oblige.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thankyou
The SJPN has only the failure to furnish charge on it.
Not the speeding offence which it refers to.
Does that make any difference in the options you have outlined
above?
The reason I was asking about the timescales is because I
thought the speeding offence hasn’t been added because it is out
of time.
If that is the case then there is question over the timescales
for the FtF offence and whether that is also out of time.
Everywhere I’ve read there is no definite on when the 6 months
timescales start and end.
Does it start with the first s172 request +29 days
Or depending on how many letters they send out they can pick at
date off one of them?
It’s seems having read a few other instances that it’s normally
the first - if I’ve been sent another letter and they’ve chosen
that date to use isn’t that just them stretching the timescales
in an effort to enable a charge saying that the speeding charge
is out of time.
Then there is no info on where the 6 month timescale ends.
Is it that the SJPN has to be sent before the 6month deadline?
I know I’m probably clutching at straws but I do have solicitors
letter regarding the mail going missing at the property dated
around the same time period, so I do think I stand a good chance
of arguing the not received.
#Post#: 37765--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: September 22, 2024, 4:43 am
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--- Quote from: Just234 link ---
>
> ... The reason I was asking about the timescales is because I
thought the speeding offence hasn’t been added because it is out
of time.
> If that is the case then there is question over the timescales
for the FtF offence and whether that is also out of time.
>
> Everywhere I’ve read there is no definite on when the 6 months
timescales start and end.
> Does it start with the first s172 request +29 days
> Or depending on how many letters they send out they can pick
at date off one of them?
> It’s seems having read a few other instances that it’s
normally the first - if I’ve been sent another letter and
they’ve chosen that date to use isn’t that just them stretching
the timescales in an effort to enable a charge saying that the
speeding charge is out of time.
>
> Then there is no info on where the 6 month timescale ends.
> Is it that the SJPN has to be sent before the 6month deadline?
...
>
>
--- End Quote ---
I don't think you understood what I tried to explain yesterday
evening...
Please answer this: Are you the person recorded by the DVLA as
being the Registered Keeper (RK) of the vehicle in question? In
other words, do you have the car's V5C document in your
possession, and does it correctly record both your name and your
address?
If you are the RK AND your address is correct then yes, it seems
strange that you committed the failure to identify offence some
4 - 5 months after the original speeding offence. If that is
the case then it might be worth your while to find out from the
police when the first NIP/s172 request was sent to you at your
correct address.
If, however, you are not the RK (and that sounds quite likely)
then the 4 - 5 month delay can be easily explained and doesn't
give you a get out.
For example, let's assume that you aren't the RK and a finance
company is. The police will have to have sent out a NIP to the
finance company within 14 days of the original speeding offence
committed on 01 April 2023, and the finance company has 28 days
in which to respond. Lets assume the finance company names a
car leasing company. They in turn will get their own NIP/s172
request and have a further 28 days in which to respond naming
the next person in the chain. Let's assume the car leasing
company names your employer (it's a company car). Your employer
gets their own NIP/s172 request and has a further 28 days in
which to name you. Let's assume the police then send you your
own NIP/s172 request at the end of July 2023. You don't get it
and fail to respond. As far as the police are concerned, you
failed to identify the driver by the end of August 2023 and
that's when you committed the offence.
That's just one possible example and one possible reason to
explain the apparently long delay between the original speeding
offence and the failure to identify offence. Whether that
particular example applies in your case we don't know as you
haven't given enough detail.
So are you the RK, or aren't you?
To try to clear up your other queries:
1. Yes, the speeding has timed out, so if you've only been
charged with failure to identify and not with speeding, you
can't really do a plea bargain because you have nothing to offer
the prosecution. You could try asking but it almost certainly
won't be accepted.
2. AIUI, for the purpose of committing the offence of failure
to identify, it's 28 days from the first NIP/s172 served on you
that counts, and as I've tried to explain to you above, the
first NIP served on you could have been several months after the
original speeding offence. The police can't keep extending the
6 month deadline by reissuing requests to you. (And - in any
case - you don't even appear to know for sure when the first
request for information was sent to you... Perhaps you should
try to find out?)
3. No, the SJPN does not have to be sent to you before the 6
month deadline. What needs to be done within 6 months is the
issuing of the written charge which originates the SJPN. The
SJPN itself can be sent outsde 6 months so long as the written
charge was within 6 months.
4. I can't comment on whether your problems receiving post
constitute a defence or not - with or without confirmation from
your solicitor
#Post#: 37766--------------------------------------------------
Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: September 22, 2024, 4:44 am
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All this reading you seem to be doing isn’t very effective.
AF has explained when a s 172 notice is presumed to have been
served (subject to actual evidence to the contrary).
There is case law (albeit from Scotland) that says there is only
one s 172 notice, which is the first one (to that person). So
no, the police can’t seek to serve another to “stretch” the time
limit.
The six months ends after six months.
Unless you can tell us when the s 172 notice addressed to you
was deemed to be served nobody can tell you whether the
prosecution is in time or not.
If speeding isn’t on the written charge then you generally can’t
do a deal to plead guilty to it.
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