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#Post#: 36698--------------------------------------------------
Court Claim - Euro Car Parks Euro Notice from March 2020
(Greengate Manchester)
DIR By: ChromeX1
Date: September 12, 2024, 8:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Just want to preface this and give huge props to
[member=26]b789[/member] and [member=103]DWMB2[/member] for the
work you do here. Do you guys have a donations page so other
users like myself can support the great work you do?
A letter was received to my address which was a county court
claim form made against my father from Euro Car Parks. As you
can see in the letter, this alleged PCN is from March 2020. My
father is no longer registered keeper of the Vehicle (sold in
October 2020) and at the time, there were 2 additional name
drivers on the car (is there a case to suggest ECP can't confirm
who was driving at the time of the alleged infringement?). I
genuinely do not recall receiving a PNC.
Link to Court claim letter and PNC here (wouldn't let me attach
directly here)
HTML https://imgur.com/a/1zSn9Jz
I have googled the alleged infringement location and there
appears to be only one ECP within the Greengate manachester area
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/place/Greengate+car+park/@53.4871267,-2.248621,15z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x487bb1f442683caf:0xadd8d0e63088b494!8m2!3d53.4871267!4d-2.248621!16s%2Fg%2F11hy9hq3b9?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDkxMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D.<br
/>I have also found on Google the signage from approx 2 years
ago
HTML https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipNtgJDV_LFPlco0LAKEyDbYi-f0ATgBmUlPwGN0=s1360-w1360-h1020<br
/>if that's of any use.
I have read the very helpful guidance of
[member=26]b789[/member] and 'Coupon-mad' from MSE
HTML https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/64350585/#Comment_64350585<br
/>for similar posts and aim to follow that. I hope this wasn't
the
wrong thing to do but so far I have posted my AoS via mail (I
believe doing this online is advisable but is it too late for
that?), and aim to prepare my defence.
I also contacted DCB, and requested the original PNC which was
provided.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/6ZudfFy.png
I have never had something like this, asking for a so called
debt after 4 years is quite absurd but unsure how I go about
doing a defence. Would appreciate any support/and or guidance
offered.
#Post#: 36713--------------------------------------------------
Re: Court Claim - Euro Car Parks Euro Notice from March 2020
(Greengate Manchester)
DIR By: b789
Date: September 13, 2024, 3:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Welcome. ECP are on a binge at the moment. Probably doing some
spring cleaning and digging loads of old PCNs that they forgot
about. They can chase these forever but they can only issue a
court claim before 6 years. So, four years is no biggie. It can
be raised in any defence but this will never get into a court
room for a hearing.
The issue of who was driving is irrelevant, as long as the
identity of that person is not revealed. Not only named drivers
on the insurance policy can drive the car but anyone who holds
at least third party liability insurance can drive any car with
the owners permission.
What is important is that ECP have no idea who was driving. They
have issued the PCN to the Keeper and have asked the Keeper to
pass the notice on to the driver. However, they are attempting
to rely on PoFA to be able to transfer liability for the charge
from the unknown driver to the Keeper. However, they can only do
that if they fully comply with all the requirements of PoFA and
they haven't. There is no "invitation", not any synonym of the
word, for the Keeper to pay the charge in the Notice to Keeper
(NtK).
On what date did you post your Acknowledgement of Service (AoS)?
It is very important that the AoS is received by the CNBC no
later than Monday 16th September. As long as the AoS is received
by that date, you then have until 4pm on Monday 30th September
to submit your defence.
You didn't have to post the AoS if you couldn't log into MCOL.
You could simply have downloaded the N9 form online, completed
it and then emailed it as a pdf attachment to an email and sent
to to aos.cnbc@justice.gov.uk. Did you get a free "proof of
posting" certificate from the post office when you sent the AoS?
In fact, because it is such a shambles at the CNBC, you should
email a copy now. At least you will know it has been received
because you CC in yourself and you also get an auto-response
email back from the CNBC.
What is going to happen next is you submit your defence. I know
the template defence over on MSE is very long and I also know
that many judges do not like it as they consider it a long
boilerplate that tries to cover everything, including a lot of
detail that isn't necessary.
It really doesn't matter as ECP have used DCB Legal to file the
claim. To be honest, you could simply send in a nursery rhyme as
your defence and the outcome is likely to be the same... an
eventual discontinuation.
So, no matter which defence you use, the long one from MSE or
the short one that has been put together by a district judge,
the outcome will be the same. As long as the advice is followed,
this will eventually discontinued.
Here is the suggested defence with a draft order that I suggest
you use. When I say "you", I am referring to the named defendant
on the claim form. It doesn't matter if you are doing this for
your dad as long as it all in his name. Any documents that
require a signature can be signed electronically by simply
typing the defendants full name on the forum. There should be no
need to print anything off. Everything is sent as a PDF
attachment to an email and the claim number should be in the
subject of the email. Always CC in yourself as evidence of
having sent it.
When adding any defence, you have to assume that you have never
had any correspondence about this allegation and the claim form
is the first you know about this. With that in mind, think how
you would respond to the allegation. The Particulars of Claim
are woefully inadequate and fail to fully comply with CPR 16.4.
This short defence has been adapted slightly because there is a
mention in the PoC that the reason for the PCN was because "The
PandD/permit Purchased Did Not Cover The Date And Time of
Parking."
--- Quote ---
>
> [center]IN THE COUNTY COURT[/center]
> [right]Claim No: [Claim Number][/right]
> [center]BETWEEN:
>
> Euro Car Parks Limited
> Claimant
>
> - and -
>
> [Defendant's Full Name]
> Defendant
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------
>
> DEFENCE[/center]
>
> 1. The Defendant denies any liability for this claim.
>
> 2. There is a lack of precise detail in the Particulars of
Claim (PoC) in respect of the factual and legal allegations made
against the Defendant such that the PoC do not comply with CPR
16.4.
>
> 3. The Defendant is unable to plead properly to the PoC
because:
>
> [indent](a) The contract referred to is not detailed or
attached to the PoC in accordance with CPR PD 16.7.5;
>
> (b) The PoC do not state the exact wording of the clause (or
clauses) of the terms and conditions of the contract which is
relied on;
>
> (c) The PoC do not clearly set out the reason why or how the
claimant asserts that the defendant has breached the contract;
>
> (d) The PoC do not state with sufficient particularity (i)
exactly where the breach occurred, (ii) the exact time when the
breach occurred and (iii) how long it is alleged that the
vehicle was parked before the parking charge was allegedly
incurred;
>
> (e) The PoC do not state exactly how the claim for statutory
interest is calculated;
>
> (f) The PoC do not state what proportion of the claim is the
parking charge and what proportion is damages;
>
> (g) The PoC states that the Claimant is suing the defendant as
the driver or the keeper. The claimant obviously knows whether
the defendant is being sued as the driver or the keeper and
should not be permitted to plead alternative causes of action;
>
> (h) In the Notice to Keeper (NtK) received after the claim was
issued, the Claimant has failed to fully comply with all the
requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA).
Specifically, the Claimant failed to include the required
"invitation", or any synonym of the word, for the Keeper to pay
the charge as mandated by PoFA paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) and
therefore, there can be no Keeper liability.[/indent]
>
> 4. The Defendant has attached to this defence a copy of an
order made at another court which the allocating judge ought to
make at this stage so that the Defendant can then know and
understand the case which they face and can then respond
properly to the claim.
>
> Statement of truth
>
> I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true. I
understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought
against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false
statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without
an honest belief in its truth.
>
>
> Signed:
>
>
> Date:
--- End Quote ---
Here is link to the draft order which should also be attached to
the email with the defence:
Short Defence Draft Order
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yjj8nwoc6sknmc9uawecf/short-defence-order-copy-3.pdf?rlkey=y3xyz2s8vumu0k3webocx9sza&st=66sobk5r&dl=0
All the defendant has to do is edit their name and the claim
number in the defence and type their name for the signature and
date it. There is nothing to edit in the Draft Order.
Both documents should be saved in PDF format and attached to the
an email addressed to claimresponses.cnbc@justice.gov.uk. Make
sure the claim number is in the subject of the email. In the
body, simply state that attached is the defence and a draft
order for claim number [Claimant name v Defendants name]. Also
CC in yourself.
When it is emailed, you must receive an auto-response email back
from the CNBC. It should be almost immediate but could take a
few minutes. If you do not receive the auto-response, try again
and if no luck, try sending from a different email agent.
Please keep us informed if you choose to use the above defence.
#Post#: 36715--------------------------------------------------
Re: Court Claim - Euro Car Parks Euro Notice from March 2020
(Greengate Manchester)
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: September 13, 2024, 3:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Welcome. ECP are on a binge at the moment. Probably doing some
spring cleaning and digging loads of old PCNs that they forgot
about.
--- End Quote ---
They seem to go through phases of doing this.
We cannot offer guarantees, as prior conduct is not always a
reliable indicator of future conduct, but if they carry on as
they have for the last couple of years, as long as you defend
this, DCB Legal will probably discontinue.
--- Quote ---
> Do you guys have a donations page
--- End Quote ---
No, advice is offered for free, and the costs of setting
up/running the site are generously covered by Southpaw82, the
owner. I do sometimes suggest to people that if they wish to and
can afford to, that if they win their case they could donate
some of the money they saved to a charity of their choice.
#Post#: 37028--------------------------------------------------
Re: Court Claim - Euro Car Parks Euro Notice from March 2020
(Greengate Manchester)
DIR By: ChromeX1
Date: September 16, 2024, 7:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> Welcome. ECP are on a binge at the moment. Probably doing some
spring cleaning and digging loads of old PCNs that they forgot
about. They can chase these forever but they can only issue a
court claim before 6 years. So, four years is no biggie. It can
be raised in any defence but this will never get into a court
room for a hearing.
>
> The issue of who was driving is irrelevant, as long as the
identity of that person is not revealed. Not only named drivers
on the insurance policy can drive the car but anyone who holds
at least third party liability insurance can drive any car with
the owners permission.
>
> What is important is that ECP have no idea who was driving.
They have issued the PCN to the Keeper and have asked the Keeper
to pass the notice on to the driver. However, they are
attempting to rely on PoFA to be able to transfer liability for
the charge from the unknown driver to the Keeper. However, they
can only do that if they fully comply with all the requirements
of PoFA and they haven't. There is no "invitation", not any
synonym of the word, for the Keeper to pay the charge in the
Notice to Keeper (NtK).
>
> On what date did you post your Acknowledgement of Service
(AoS)? It is very important that the AoS is received by the CNBC
no later than Monday 16th September. As long as the AoS is
received by that date, you then have until 4pm on Monday 30th
September to submit your defence.
>
> You didn't have to post the AoS if you couldn't log into MCOL.
You could simply have downloaded the N9 form online, completed
it and then emailed it as a pdf attachment to an email and sent
to to aos.cnbc@justice.gov.uk. Did you get a free "proof of
posting" certificate from the post office when you sent the AoS?
In fact, because it is such a shambles at the CNBC, you should
email a copy now. At least you will know it has been received
because you CC in yourself and you also get an auto-response
email back from the CNBC.
>
> What is going to happen next is you submit your defence. I
know the template defence over on MSE is very long and I also
know that many judges do not like it as they consider it a long
boilerplate that tries to cover everything, including a lot of
detail that isn't necessary.
>
> It really doesn't matter as ECP have used DCB Legal to file
the claim. To be honest, you could simply send in a nursery
rhyme as your defence and the outcome is likely to be the
same... an eventual discontinuation.
>
> So, no matter which defence you use, the long one from MSE or
the short one that has been put together by a district judge,
the outcome will be the same. As long as the advice is followed,
this will eventually discontinued.
>
> Here is the suggested defence with a draft order that I
suggest you use. When I say "you", I am referring to the named
defendant on the claim form. It doesn't matter if you are doing
this for your dad as long as it all in his name. Any documents
that require a signature can be signed electronically by simply
typing the defendants full name on the forum. There should be no
need to print anything off. Everything is sent as a PDF
attachment to an email and the claim number should be in the
subject of the email. Always CC in yourself as evidence of
having sent it.
>
> When adding any defence, you have to assume that you have
never had any correspondence about this allegation and the claim
form is the first you know about this. With that in mind, think
how you would respond to the allegation. The Particulars of
Claim are woefully inadequate and fail to fully comply with CPR
16.4.
>
> This short defence has been adapted slightly because there is
a mention in the PoC that the reason for the PCN was because
"The PandD/permit Purchased Did Not Cover The Date And Time of
Parking."
>
> [quote]
> [center]IN THE COUNTY COURT[/center]
> [right]Claim No: [Claim Number][/right]
> [center]BETWEEN:
>
> Euro Car Parks Limited
> Claimant
>
> - and -
>
> [Defendant's Full Name]
> Defendant
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------
>
> DEFENCE[/center]
>
> 1. The Defendant denies any liability for this claim.
>
> 2. There is a lack of precise detail in the Particulars of
Claim (PoC) in respect of the factual and legal allegations made
against the Defendant such that the PoC do not comply with CPR
16.4.
>
> 3. The Defendant is unable to plead properly to the PoC
because:
>
> [indent](a) The contract referred to is not detailed or
attached to the PoC in accordance with CPR PD 16.7.5;
>
> (b) The PoC do not state the exact wording of the clause (or
clauses) of the terms and conditions of the contract which is
relied on;
>
> (c) The PoC do not clearly set out the reason why or how the
claimant asserts that the defendant has breached the contract;
>
> (d) The PoC do not state with sufficient particularity (i)
exactly where the breach occurred, (ii) the exact time when the
breach occurred and (iii) how long it is alleged that the
vehicle was parked before the parking charge was allegedly
incurred;
>
> (e) The PoC do not state exactly how the claim for statutory
interest is calculated;
>
> (f) The PoC do not state what proportion of the claim is the
parking charge and what proportion is damages;
>
> (g) The PoC states that the Claimant is suing the defendant as
the driver or the keeper. The claimant obviously knows whether
the defendant is being sued as the driver or the keeper and
should not be permitted to plead alternative causes of action;
>
> (h) In the Notice to Keeper (NtK) received after the claim was
issued, the Claimant has failed to fully comply with all the
requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA).
Specifically, the Claimant failed to include the required
"invitation", or any synonym of the word, for the Keeper to pay
the charge as mandated by PoFA paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) and
therefore, there can be no Keeper liability.[/indent]
>
> 4. The Defendant has attached to this defence a copy of an
order made at another court which the allocating judge ought to
make at this stage so that the Defendant can then know and
understand the case which they face and can then respond
properly to the claim.
>
> Statement of truth
>
> I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true. I
understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought
against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false
statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without
an honest belief in its truth.
>
>
> Signed:
>
>
> Date:
--- End Quote ---
Here is link to the draft order which should also be attached to
the email with the defence:
Short Defence Draft Order
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yjj8nwoc6sknmc9uawecf/short-defence-order-copy-3.pdf?rlkey=y3xyz2s8vumu0k3webocx9sza&st=66sobk5r&dl=0
All the defendant has to do is edit their name and the claim
number in the defence and type their name for the signature and
date it. There is nothing to edit in the Draft Order.
Both documents should be saved in PDF format and attached to the
an email addressed to claimresponses.cnbc@justice.gov.uk. Make
sure the claim number is in the subject of the email. In the
body, simply state that attached is the defence and a draft
order for claim number [Claimant name v Defendants name]. Also
CC in yourself.
When it is emailed, you must receive an auto-response email back
from the CNBC. It should be almost immediate but could take a
few minutes. If you do not receive the auto-response, try again
and if no luck, try sending from a different email agent.
Please keep us informed if you choose to use the above defence.
[/quote]
[member=26]b789[/member] delivers again! Thank you very much for
taking the time to respond and draft that. Very much appreciated
and again huge props for the work you do for others.
As I have already given my acknowledgement, can I submit my
defence right away or is it advisable to wait?
[member=103]DWMB2[/member] thank you for the response too!
#Post#: 37034--------------------------------------------------
Re: Court Claim - Euro Car Parks Euro Notice from March 2020
(Greengate Manchester)
DIR By: b789
Date: September 16, 2024, 7:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
You can submit the defence any time as long as it is before the
deadline. There is no advantage to be gained. I predict that
this will eventually be discontinued.
#Post#: 37037--------------------------------------------------
Re: Court Claim - Euro Car Parks Euro Notice from March 2020
(Greengate Manchester)
DIR By: ChromeX1
Date: September 16, 2024, 7:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> You can submit the defence any time as long as it is before
the deadline. There is no advantage to be gained. I predict that
this will eventually be discontinued.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you - I will be in touch with the verdict!
As a side note, can the email with the defence come from any
email address as long as the correct references are used?
#Post#: 37056--------------------------------------------------
Re: Court Claim - Euro Car Parks Euro Notice from March 2020
(Greengate Manchester)
DIR By: b789
Date: September 16, 2024, 8:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It matters not which email address you use to send the defence
from. However, it must be an email address that you have access
to and can receive and verify any auto responses and anything
else sent to that address.
I don't understand why you are asking that question.
Sending your defence is not the only thing that you will have to
do. Once your defence is submitted, the CNBC will send a copy to
the Claimant who will respond and inform you that they have
received your defence and they intend to continue (usually with
a "without prejudice" offer to settle, which you ignore). After
that, you will receive an N180 DQ that you will need to complete
and email back to the court AND the claimants solicitor. At some
point after that, if it hasn't been thrown out yet, you will
receive a notification that it has been transferred to your
local court and then a date with a hearing and a deadline to
submit your "bundle" (Witness Statement).
If it has not already been thrown out, DCB Legal will
discontinue just before they have to pay the trial fee. They
will, at various stages try and make contact and try to settle
for less. Ignore them and if you are silly enough to actually
communicate with them about this, I guarantee that they will
keep haggling down to £25 and as long as you stick to your guns,
they will give up and discontinue.
#Post#: 37130--------------------------------------------------
Re: Court Claim - Euro Car Parks Euro Notice from March 2020
(Greengate Manchester)
DIR By: ChromeX1
Date: September 16, 2024, 7:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> It matters not which email address you use to send the defence
from. However, it must be an email address that you have access
to and can receive and verify any auto responses and anything
else sent to that address.
>
> I don't understand why you are asking that question.
>
> Sending your defence is not the only thing that you will have
to do. Once your defence is submitted, the CNBC will send a copy
to the Claimant who will respond and inform you that they have
received your defence and they intend to continue (usually with
a "without prejudice" offer to settle, which you ignore). After
that, you will receive an N180 DQ that you will need to complete
and email back to the court AND the claimants solicitor. At some
point after that, if it hasn't been thrown out yet, you will
receive a notification that it has been transferred to your
local court and then a date with a hearing and a deadline to
submit your "bundle" (Witness Statement).
>
> If it has not already been thrown out, DCB Legal will
discontinue just before they have to pay the trial fee. They
will, at various stages try and make contact and try to settle
for less. Ignore them and if you are silly enough to actually
communicate with them about this, I guarantee that they will
keep haggling down to £25 and as long as you stick to your guns,
they will give up and discontinue.
>
--- End Quote ---
Regarding the email, my brother who is at the home address has
filled the paperwork and used this email address on the AoS.
Shall I ask my brother to submit the defence and draft order as
part of our defence online too (www.moneyclaim.gov.uk)? He has
already emailed both documents to the email you mentioned.
#Post#: 37132--------------------------------------------------
Re: Court Claim - Euro Car Parks Euro Notice from March 2020
(Greengate Manchester)
DIR By: b789
Date: September 17, 2024, 12:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
You can just send the defence from your email address. As long
as the autoresponse is received, that’s all that matters.
If your brother completed the AoS and did it all in your name,
is what is important. Did he use his Government Gateway ID or
yours to access MCOL?
#Post#: 37143--------------------------------------------------
Re: Court Claim - Euro Car Parks Euro Notice from March 2020
(Greengate Manchester)
DIR By: ChromeX1
Date: September 17, 2024, 3:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> You can just send the defence from your email address. As long
as the autoresponse is received, that’s all that matters.
>
> If your brother completed the AoS and did it all in your name,
is what is important. Did he use his Government Gateway ID or
yours to access MCOL?
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks; I'll make sure all comms are from his account. I logged
onto the MCOL but I did not perform any actions.
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