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#Post#: 36677--------------------------------------------------
Civil Enforcement - Payment Not made - Five Valleys, Stroud
DIR By: tasty_snacks
Date: September 12, 2024, 4:22 pm
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Howdy all
Received this delightful little number in the post on Sept 7th.
It claims 'payment not made.' The driver paid using a physical
pay machine on site. The driver does not recall whether physical
tickets are issued from pay machines at this location, and no
display ticket (if issued) has been retained. The driver has a
debit on their bank account on the date in question to CEL Ltd.
The driver's bank has confirmed that the transaction occurred 3
minutes after the alleged offence, with payment being received
by Civil Enforcement Ltd. Evidence of this can be provided. This
corresponds to the driver's Google timeline which shows arrival
at the location moments before a ticket was purchased.
The driver is unable to revisit the location to take photos of
signage at this stage.
Front Page
HTML [img]http://
HTML https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53990881203_29a7e25cbf_b.jpg
HTML https://flic.kr/p/2qfZnY820240912_213441
HTML https://flic.kr/p/2qfZnY8
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/201436587@N06/,
on Flickr[/img]
Back Page
HTML [img]http://
HTML https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53990647671_16e6bb25a0_b.jpg
HTML https://flic.kr/p/2qfYbxH20240912_213530
HTML https://flic.kr/p/2qfYbxH
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/201436587@N06/,
on Flickr[/img]
It's been a while since I've received one of these, but as a
default, doesn't the 'from' and 'to' time need to be completed
for validity (or is that only Penalty Charge Notices)?
And whilst not mandatory for validity/ enforcement (I think?),
in looking at several other Civil Enforcement PCNs posted on
this site, they seem to contain photographic 'evidence,' whereas
this one does not.
Note I have not yet appealed to CEL.
Thanks for any assistance!
#Post#: 36683--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - Payment Not made - Five Valleys, Stroud
DIR By: b789
Date: September 12, 2024, 4:34 pm
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Easy one to defeat... as long as the unknown drivers identity is
not revealed. There is no legal obligation on the known keeper
(the recipient of the Notice to Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the
identity of the unknown driver and no inference or assumptions
can be made.
The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which
means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot
transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the
known keeper.
Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove
anything from it:
--- Quote ---
> I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking
charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I
will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your
client landowner.
>
> As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL
the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper
of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even
substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no
admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions
can be drawn. Civil Enforcement has relied on contract law
allegations of breach against the driver only.
>
> The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have
been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation
of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable.
Civil Enforcement have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to
save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 36696--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - Payment Not made - Five Valleys, Stroud
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: September 12, 2024, 6:56 pm
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Before you send the above, can you please confirm that you are
the registered keeper of the vehicle, and you have the vehicle's
V5C document in your possession with the correct address? If
not, please tell us as a different approach will be needed.
That notice has been issued an unusually long time after the
incident, so worth us making sure.
#Post#: 36933--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - Payment Not made - Five Valleys, Stroud
DIR By: tasty_snacks
Date: September 15, 2024, 11:42 am
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Thanks both
Yes, I am the registered keeper and am in possession of V5C, no
changes in >12 months
#Post#: 36934--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - Payment Not made - Five Valleys, Stroud
DIR By: b789
Date: September 15, 2024, 11:44 am
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--- Quote from: tasty_snacks link ---
>
> Thanks both
>
> Yes, I am the registered keeper and am in possession of V5C
--- End Quote ---
That doesn't quite answer the question...
--- Quote from: DWMB2 link ---
>
> Before you send the above, can you please confirm that you are
the registered keeper of the vehicle, and you have the vehicle's
V5C document in your possession with the correct address?
--- End Quote ---
Is there any possibility that the address was different at the
time the PCN was issued?
#Post#: 36936--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - Payment Not made - Five Valleys, Stroud
DIR By: tasty_snacks
Date: September 15, 2024, 11:56 am
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Yes, address is correct and unchanged in > 12 months
#Post#: 36939--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - Payment Not made - Five Valleys, Stroud
DIR By: b789
Date: September 15, 2024, 12:13 pm
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OK. So send that appeal as the Keeper, verbatim.
#Post#: 36991--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - Payment Not made - Five Valleys, Stroud
DIR By: tasty_snacks
Date: September 16, 2024, 5:05 am
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Thanks all, submitting today.
Coincidentally, received another notice today (different issue
date of 11th Sept), but this time it contained the 'to' date and
time.
I assume that as a default CEL will reject the initial appeal,
leaving POPLA (and ultimately civil court) as recourse. V happy
to go the full distance if required.
#Post#: 36994--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - Payment Not made - Five Valleys, Stroud
DIR By: b789
Date: September 16, 2024, 5:20 am
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No need to assume that CEL will reject the appeal... they will.
However, you have a 50:50 chance of success and if not, the
ultimate dispute resolution service, the small claims track of
the county court, assuming it ever gets that far.
If you have a separate PCM, I would suggest you start a separate
thread for that so as not to cloud and mix the two issues.
#Post#: 37137--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - Payment Not made - Five Valleys, Stroud
DIR By: tasty_snacks
Date: September 17, 2024, 3:03 am
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Thanks - just to be clear, it is the same PCN number, simply
different (later) issue date and more complete info (i.e. the
'to' section has been completed).
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