DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 36293--------------------------------------------------
Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles
entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)
DIR By: Nom1
Date: September 10, 2024, 3:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Penalty Charge Notice: CR19525192
Vehicle Registration Mark: MM67OFW
Date of Contravention: 21/02/2024
Location of Contravention: The Crescent, Croydon by Northcote Rd
Contravention Code Description: 53j Failing to comply with a
restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera
Enforcement)
Firstly, I have already established with Croydon Parking a
reduction in the PCN to the original amount on the basis that it
was not received.
I had previously mistakenly turned into and immediately reversed
out of The Crescent, I took the attached photographs and video
(see link below) showing that the sign for the ‘No Right Turn’
into The Crescent was actually pointing in the wrong direction
so not visible when driving towards Croydon from the Selhurst
direction
Croydon state “There is no requirement for advance warning signs
to be in place however we note that you advise the sign had been
turned.” For which I have provided photographic and video
evidence.
Mandatory requirements are set out in the Traffic Signs
Regulations and General Directions 2016 (as amended) (TSRGD).
Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 and this details the mandatory
signage for turning into such a junction as The Crescent.
Are Croydon correct in saying that the advanced warning of "No
Right Turn" is not mandatory?
HTML https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZbytVunxWEfgKhtG8
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kfx602ubr62ja70moa7tx/P0006071426_Redacted.pdf?rlkey=lte9ilqw226rv42x8v9yjgwoh&dl=0
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fkj8qwrhdcpu4qy5kiuai/RE_-Correspondence-Reply-from-London-Borough-of-Croydon-PCN-CR19525192_Redacted.pdf?rlkey=7xlras46cnda80dja7qtvu0pa&dl=0
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fkj8qwrhdcpu4qy5kiuai/RE_-Correspondence-Reply-from-London-Borough-of-Croydon-PCN-CR19525192_Redacted.pdf?rlkey=7xlras46cnda80dja7qtvu0pa&dl=0
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kfx602ubr62ja70moa7tx/P0006071426_Redacted.pdf?rlkey=lte9ilqw226rv42x8v9yjgwoh&dl=0
Thanks
Nom
#Post#: 36295--------------------------------------------------
Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on
vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: September 10, 2024, 4:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Are Croydon correct in saying that the advanced warning of "No
Right Turn" is not mandatory?
--- End Quote ---
Yes, they are, but needless to say they are being economical
with the truth. They have a duty under LATOR Regulation 18, to
sign a Traffic Order adequately, so if you can demonstrate they
haven't done this, then you should win at an adjudication.
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18
Problem is the test for adequacy is subjective, so any appeal
argument must be well argued. It is no good saying, "well, I
missed the signs so they must be inadequate"
#Post#: 36302--------------------------------------------------
Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on
vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 10, 2024, 4:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
OP:
Did you receive the PCN?
Did you make representations?
It would seem that you don't have a Notice of Rejection and as
taking your argument anywhere is contingent upon getting one, pl
answer the above.
#Post#: 36303--------------------------------------------------
Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on
vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)
DIR By: Nom1
Date: September 10, 2024, 4:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Incandescent,
Thanks for your reply. I have looked at the regulation you have
provided. LATOR Regulation 18(1) seems to be contradicted by
Regulation 18(4) :-\.
The Google Street View images show that this "No Right Turn"
sign has been incorrect for over a year (set parallel to the
road instead of being at 90 deg). The video and pictures I took
also shows the sign being at 90 degrees.
Conveniently Croydon Parking say they have not go the next 15
seconds of the incident showing me reversing out of the road
immediately I noticed I had gone through. Selhurst Road is busy,
so once taking the turn I couldn't just abandon the manoeuvre.
What to do??
Nom1
#Post#: 36304--------------------------------------------------
Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on
vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: September 10, 2024, 5:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Croydon are saying the formal representations were made out of
time. Please explain where we are with this as I am having to go
through all your linked correspondence.
#Post#: 36308--------------------------------------------------
Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on
vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)
DIR By: Nom1
Date: September 10, 2024, 5:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi HC
In answer to your questions:
Did you receive the PCN? - I did not receive the original PCN
Did you make representations? - The PCN I did receive (as
attached) had the fine at £195 against which I immediately made
representations and submitted a PE2 and PE3 (duly authorised by
my solicitor) to both TEC and Croydon. When I called TEC they
advised the PCN had not been registered by Croydon. I contacted
Croydon again and they accepted my representation for the none
receipt of the original PCN and reduced the PCN back to £65.00 -
but they would not accept that the sign was facing the wrong
way :-\
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jsz04az9kb7bia751ep8b/2024-06-14-10-56-002-_Redacted.pdf?rlkey=pc9a09m3odaobqpzohceu9fm6&dl=0
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nl01li77dnj2ktv9knwz3/PCN-CR19525192-Challenge.pdf?rlkey=6uqztcbqxv1edzs93b7ngwnjj&dl=0
It would seem that you don't have a Notice of Rejection and as
taking your argument anywhere is contingent upon getting one, pl
answer the above
No I haven't received a Notice of Rejection - I know I need this
to challenge a PCN through the adjudication route, I have asked
Croydon for this NOR but have yet to receive it??
Nom1
#Post#: 36311--------------------------------------------------
Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on
vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)
DIR By: Nom1
Date: September 10, 2024, 5:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Hippocrates,
I believe I have answered your question subsequently. To recap,
formal representations were made to Croydon and they accepted
the PCN was not originally received so reduced the PCN to the
original amount. Interestingly, Croydon also accepted that they
were very slow at answering challenges to PCNs, so when I they
originally wrote saying pay within 2 weeks or else the fine will
go up again, I challenged this and they gave an addition few
weeks to pay.
I challenged Croydon on the fact the "No Right Turn" sign was
not visible when driving down the road Croydon responded saying
"There is no requirement for advance warning signs to be in
place" - It is this statement which I do not believe to be
wholly correct.
Nom1
#Post#: 36316--------------------------------------------------
Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on
vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: September 10, 2024, 6:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
OK, but have you paid the PCN ?
#Post#: 36345--------------------------------------------------
Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on
vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)
DIR By: Nom1
Date: September 10, 2024, 10:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi There,
No I have not paid the PCN yet.
Nom1
#Post#: 36347--------------------------------------------------
Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on
vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 10, 2024, 10:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Cutting to the chase:
You submitted a stat dec on the grounds - 'did not receive the
PCN', correct?
TEC have accepted your SD and notified the council by notice
dated 3 Sept;
It's now in the council's court to issue a new PCN.
They have until 3 October to serve a PCN on you which means it
must be dated no later than 1 Oct.
the borough council or Transport for London, as the case may be,
may not serve a fresh penalty charge notice after the expiry of
the period of 28 days from the date of the cancellation of the
penalty charge notice or, in a case falling within paragraph (c)
above, the date on which that council or body are served with
notice under paragraph 7(8)(d) of the said Schedule.
UNLESS...
when you were served with your OfR this was accompanied by a
copy of the original PCN.
Was it?
Subject to the above, you do NOT need a NOR at this stage
because as far as the procedure is concerned you haven't even
been served with a PCN! Pl put all things prior to TEC's
decision letter out of your mind for the moment, you're starting
afresh.
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 2
DIR Next Page