DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Private parking tickets
*****************************************************
#Post#: 36323--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
DIR By: b789
Date: September 10, 2024, 7:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It is not and never is a “FINE”. Please try and get that into
your head.
It is NOT any of these things:
1. FINE
2. PENALTY
A fine or a penalty only ever apply to an OFFENCE committed
under statutory law. An alleged debt over an invoice is a matter
of civil law. This whole scenario is an issue of civil contract
law.
Fines and penalties are matter covered under criminal law.
I think HCA is asking “where has the PCN gone” meaning that the
link to the image of it you posted no longer works.
I really don’t know how much clearer we can make it for you. You
either fight for your lawful rights or you give in and suck up
the loss of your money.
It has been explained what you need to do to recover the money
already taken and what you need to do to protect yourself from
further loss.
Hertz have not complied with PoFA or the CRA. MET have not (yet)
breached anything. For now, your only issue is with Hertz.
#Post#: 36336--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: September 10, 2024, 8:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> For now, your only issue is with Hertz.
>
--- End Quote ---
Exactly this - from MET's perspective the case(s) are closed,
they've issued Hertz with invoices, and been paid.
#Post#: 37148--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
DIR By: mdar50743
Date: September 17, 2024, 4:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you everyone for your replies. I just got an email from
Hertz asking them to explain the process to appeal.
Can anyone please help me to formulate a appeal letter for the
case I have experienced. Just to elaborate, I was at a local
McDonald’s charging my EV car longer than than 60 mins permitted
and I stayed for 102 mins.
Dear xxxxx,
Thank you for contacting Hertz TNC.
I understand how you feel about the fines and how overwhelming
it can be.
However, we have to pay them to local authorities as the car is
registered in our name. The fines' amounts will increase if we
don't pay quickly, and we will like to avoid that or the burden
it can bring to you as a client.
Furthermore, to be a fair vendor, we send the fines across to
you as soon as we get them so that you can appeal. You will be
refunded for each appeal you win. So, anytime we send a fine you
do not agree with, let us know and we will send you the appeal
document. Unfortunately, we have to go through the process of
sending the fines to you and you request for an appeal because
we can't appeal on your behalf as you are the driver. W.e
wouldn't know what you were doing in the location where the
driving law was broken
The process involved in appealing a fine goes thus:
We send you a letter to indicate you can appeal your fine on the
behalf of Hertz.
You will also write another letter detailing the reasons you
believe you should not be fined.
You will send both letters to the local authorities.
Alternatively, you may not write a letter. You can go there in
person to plead your case.
They will give you the verdict which determines if we will
refund your fine or not.
Please, let me know if you need further assistance.
Kind regards,
Nisola
#Post#: 37151--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
DIR By: b789
Date: September 17, 2024, 4:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Before I can assist, you have not shown us the clause in your
Hire Agreement that covers how Hertz will handle PCNs. Please
show us the wording of that clause.
#Post#: 37153--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
DIR By: b789
Date: September 17, 2024, 4:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Here is a suggested response, subject to us seeing the
applicable section of the Hire Agreement as mentioned above:
--- Quote ---
> Dear Nisola,
>
> Your recent response regarding the payment of a private
parking charge notice (PCN) highlights a severe misunderstanding
of the nature of the charge, and I am astonished by Hertz’s
complete failure to grasp the fundamental differences between a
PCN and a statutory fine or penalty issued for an offence by a
local authority.
>
> Let me be unequivocally clear: a PCN issued by a private
parking company is not a "fine" or "penalty" in any legal sense.
It is an invoice for an alleged breach of contract. There is no
"offence" involved, no "law" has been broken, and no statutory
authority is involved. By paying this speculative invoice on my
behalf, Hertz has effectively accepted liability for a matter in
which no liability existed on my part, and in doing so, has
forfeited my right to appeal.
>
> All Hertz had to do was transfer liability to me, the hirer,
as required under PoFA paragraph 13(2). This simple action would
have been the end of the matter as far as Hertz was concerned.
Yet, instead of following this straightforward process, you have
chosen to pay the charge directly, thereby making Hertz liable
and eliminating any chance of appeal. This is a clear failure on
Hertz’s part to comply with well-established legal procedures
for handling private parking charges.
>
> The utter nonsense in your response, particularly the
following paragraph, is both infuriating and demonstrates a
complete lack of understanding:
>
> "Furthermore, to be a fair vendor, we send the fines across to
you as soon as we get them so that you can appeal. You will be
refunded for each appeal you win. So, anytime we send a fine you
do not agree with, let us know and we will send you the appeal
document. Unfortunately, we have to go through the process of
sending the fines to you and you request for an appeal because
we can't appeal on your behalf as you are the driver. W.e
wouldn't know what you were doing in the location where the
driving law was broken."
>
> This statement is not only completely irrelevant but also
demonstrates a shocking level of ignorance about the nature of a
PCN. There is no "driving law" involved, no "offence" was
committed, and a PCN is not a statutory fine. The process
described is utterly unnecessary and has caused needless
confusion. All you had to do was transfer liability under PoFA,
and this nonsense could have been avoided.
>
> I would also like to remind you that the British Vehicle
Rental and Leasing Association (BVRLA) guidelines clearly
distinguish between private parking charges and statutory
penalties or fines. These guidelines state that parking charges
are private matters, not enforceable by statutory authorities,
and therefore should not be treated in the same way as fines or
penalties. Your decision to pay this charge without transferring
liability to me as the hirer is in direct contravention of these
guidelines, further highlighting Hertz’s negligence in this
matter.
>
> Additionally, this action breaches the Consumer Rights Act
(CRA) 2015. As mentioned previously, Section 62 prohibits terms
that put consumers at an unfair disadvantage, and Section 57
prevents me from bearing costs I am not liable for under the
agreement. You have extended the scope of the agreement beyond
what was contractually agreed, and I am now holding Hertz liable
for the money you have wrongfully charged me.
>
> If you are still unable to comprehend the seriousness of this
issue, I suggest you escalate this matter to your superiors or,
if necessary, directly to Hertz's legal advisors. I will not
hesitate to initiate litigation to recover the funds you have
unlawfully taken from me, as well as any additional costs
incurred.
>
> This is my final request for a full refund of the amount Hertz
wrongly paid on my behalf. I also demand that Hertz conduct an
internal review to ensure this incompetence does not continue to
affect other customers.
>
> I expect a prompt and appropriate response.
>
> Yours sincerely,
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 37215--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: September 17, 2024, 10:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Standing ovation for that letter to Hertz.
#Post#: 37218--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: September 17, 2024, 10:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> Standing ovation for that letter to Hertz.
>
--- End Quote ---
And a slow hand clap for the letter from Hertz ;D
#Post#: 37224--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
DIR By: mdar50743
Date: September 17, 2024, 11:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> Before I can assist, you have not shown us the clause in your
Hire Agreement that covers how Hertz will handle PCNs. Please
show us the wording of that clause.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for your reply and your draft email.
The Hire Agreement is on this link:
HTML https://beige-gelya-23.tiiny.site
#Post#: 37226--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
DIR By: b789
Date: September 17, 2024, 12:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Well, this is a bit damning for Hertz:
--- Quote ---
> FINES, TOLLS AND OTHER CHARGES
>
> You are responsible for all fines, road tolls, congestion
charges and other similar charges (including parking fines or
charges) incurred in relation to the vehicle during your rental.
Some of these will be sent to us for payment, which we will pay
and recover from you by way of reimbursement. Alternatively, we
may be required to provide your details to the relevant
authority or other third party, who will contact you directly.
--- End Quote ---
Section 16:
--- Quote ---
> By signing this rental agreement I agree that while the rental
agreement is in force I will be liable as owner/hirer of the
vehicle, or any replacement vehicle, for any fixed penalty
offence, penalty charge notice, notice to owner, parking charge
notice for that vehicle under s66 Road Traffic Offenders Act
1988, Schedule 6 Road Traffic Act 1991, Traffic Management Act
2004, Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and any other relevant
legislation.
--- End Quote ---
The mention of both "parking charge notices" and the Protection
of Freedoms Act (PoFA) in Section 16 of the agreement makes a
significant difference. Here’s how it affects the situation:
PoFA Requirements:
Since Section 16 refers to both parking charge notices and PoFA,
it acknowledges that Hertz must handle such notices in
compliance with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Under PoFA
paragraph 13, if a parking charge notice is issued by a private
parking company, Hertz has the option to transfer liability to
the hirer (you), allowing you to take responsibility for the
notice and, crucially, to appeal if necessary.
Failure to Follow PoFA:
Despite this reference to PoFA, Hertz did not follow the correct
legal process outlined in PoFA paragraph 13. Instead of
transferring liability to you as the hirer, which would have
been the appropriate course of action, they directly paid the
charge. This payment means that liability was admitted,
effectively removing your ability to contest the charge or
appeal it through proper channels.
Contractual Obligations Under PoFA:
By failing to comply with PoFA, Hertz has breached its own
rental agreement. The agreement refers to PoFA, which outlines a
clear legal mechanism for transferring liability in cases
involving private parking charge notices. Hertz should have
relied on this mechanism to transfer liability to you, rather
than pay the charge themselves and then pass the cost on to you
without giving you the chance to contest the charge.
No Obligation to Pay Immediately:
PoFA does not require Hertz to pay a private PCN immediately
upon receiving it. Instead, they should have passed the notice
to you, allowing you to respond or appeal within the 28-day
period specified under PoFA. By paying the PCN directly, Hertz
has deprived you of your legal rights under this Act.
Key Argument:
Since Hertz acknowledged PoFA in the agreement but failed to
follow its procedures, they have breached both their contractual
obligations and your legal rights under PoFA. Their payment of
the PCN without transferring liability is a direct violation of
the Act, and this action should never have taken place.
Here is a slightly amended version of the response you should be
sending to Nisola:
--- Quote ---
> Dear Nisola,
>
> Your recent response regarding the payment of a private
parking charge notice (PCN) demonstrates a severe
misunderstanding of both the nature of the charge and Hertz’s
contractual obligations under the hire agreement. I am truly
astounded by Hertz’s total failure to comprehend the basic legal
framework surrounding PCNs issued by private parking companies.
>
> Let me clarify: a PCN issued by a private parking company is
not a "fine" or "penalty" in any legal sense. It is an invoice
for an alleged breach of contract. There is no "offence"
involved, no "law" has been broken, and no statutory authority
is involved. By paying this speculative invoice on my behalf,
Hertz has accepted liability for a matter in which no liability
existed on my part, and in doing so, has forfeited my right to
appeal.
>
> All Hertz had to do was transfer liability to me, the hirer,
as required under PoFA paragraph 13. This simple action would
have been the end of the matter as far as Hertz was concerned.
Instead of following this straightforward process, you chose to
pay the charge directly, removing my ability to appeal. This is
a clear failure on Hertz’s part to comply with both PoFA and
your own rental agreement.
>
> Section 16 of your agreement explicitly mentions both "parking
charge notices" and the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA). This
clearly indicates that Hertz is aware of the requirements under
PoFA, including the obligation to transfer liability to the
hirer in the event of a private parking charge. By failing to
transfer liability, Hertz has breached both the agreement and
PoFA itself.
>
> The nonsensical paragraph in your response is particularly
infuriating: "Furthermore, to be a fair vendor, we send the
fines across to you as soon as we get them so that you can
appeal. You will be refunded for each appeal you win. So,
anytime we send a fine you do not agree with, let us know and we
will send you the appeal document. Unfortunately, we have to go
through the process of sending the fines to you and you request
for an appeal because we can't appeal on your behalf as you are
the driver. We wouldn’t know what you were doing in the location
where the driving law was broken."
>
> This statement shows an utter lack of understanding. No
"driving law" has been broken, no "fine" was issued, and Hertz
had no obligation to pay a private parking invoice on my behalf.
All you had to do was transfer the liability, which is both the
legal requirement and the appropriate action under PoFA.
>
> Furthermore, the British Vehicle Rental and Leasing
Association (BVRLA) guidelines clearly distinguish between
private parking charges and statutory penalties or fines. Your
decision to pay this charge without transferring liability to me
as the hirer is in direct contravention of these guidelines,
further highlighting Hertz’s negligence in this matter.
>
> Additionally, this action breaches the Consumer Rights Act
(CRA) 2015. As mentioned previously, Section 62 prohibits terms
that put consumers at an unfair disadvantage, and Section 57
prevents me from bearing costs I am not liable for under the
agreement. You have extended the scope of the agreement beyond
what was contractually agreed, and I am now holding Hertz liable
for the money you have wrongfully charged me.
>
> If you are still unable to comprehend the seriousness of this
issue, I suggest you escalate this matter to your superiors or,
if necessary, directly to Hertz's legal advisors. I will not
hesitate to initiate litigation to recover the funds you have
unlawfully taken from me, as well as any additional costs
incurred.
>
> This is my final request for a full refund of the amount Hertz
wrongly paid on my behalf. I also demand that Hertz conduct an
internal review to ensure this incompetence does not continue to
affect other customers.
>
> I expect a prompt and appropriate response.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 37258--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN EV Charging McDonald’s Fine
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 17, 2024, 3:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
By failing to transfer liability, Hertz has breached both the
agreement and PoFA itself.
?
IMO...
IF a keeper which is a vehicle hire company wishes to relieve
itself of liability then it may by following a few simple steps
set out in PoFA.
It's not obligatory, it's optional.
If a PPC wishes to pursue the hirer then it may, but it's not
obligatory, it's optional.
Similarly, if a PPC wishes to offer 'arrangements for the
resolution of disputes or complaints', these are also optional
under PoFA.
There's no breach of PoFA should a hire company choose to pay a
parking charge.
Also, as regards whether an appeal must be considered if payment
is accepted, this changes in October (with the Single CoP for
PCNs issued after the effective date) so I cannot see the
benefit of going into such detail with Hertz now.
Whether MET would now consider an appeal after payment is for
them to decide, there's no catch-all situation, it's on an
individual basis. Edit - as regards their CoP and in accordance
with whatever the PCN(which isn't available to view) states.
*****************************************************
Page 3 of 4
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page