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#Post#: 35850--------------------------------------------------
Re: New court claim issued - 28th Aug
DIR By: b789
Date: September 5, 2024, 7:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
For now, have you completed the AoS as advised?
Obviously POPLA didn’t accept the PoFA no Hirer liability. At
any stage was the hirer identified as the driver? If the driver
has been identified, PoFA ceases to be relevant.
As this is a claim filed by DCB Legal, as long as a defence is
submitted, any defence, it is 99% likely to end as a
discontinuation just before any hearing date. It is their modus
operandi. However, we have to take into account the 1% chance it
would actually end up as a hearing.
For now, the most important thing is to make sure the AoS is
done. The long defence from the MSE forum that you have shown
us, is not necessary. What happened at POPLA is irrelevant to
the situation now.
Imagine that you had never known anything about this PCN and the
first you heard about it was what is in the Particulars of Claim
(PoC). Based on that woefully inadequate information, how would
you defend yourself? The claim form is the only information you
have.
Think about what you could glean from that bit of information
and then think how you answer the allegation? Is the date shown
the actual date that the PCN was issued or is it the date of the
alleged parking contravention? Is the sum of the alleged debt
correct? How much is the charge and how much is damages or debt
recovery fees? Is the interest correctly calculated from
whatever date it became due? If you are being accused of being
the driver, can they prove that allegation? If they are claiming
that you are the Keeper, can they prove keeper liability?
Remember, the burden of proof is on the claimant to prove their
claim, not on the defendant. Do not put words or details not
alleged into any defence that gives them ammunition to use
against you.
Maybe a read of CPR 16.4 would help you understand whether they
have complied with all its requirements. After all, rules are
rules and if they have failed to comply with any, their claim
can be argued to be deficient and struck out.
#Post#: 35852--------------------------------------------------
Re: New court claim issued - 28th Aug
DIR By: b789
Date: September 5, 2024, 8:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Here are links to a Defence and a Draft Order to accompany the
Defence. The Defence only requires the header info to be edited
and a typed signature and date to be added. The accompanying
Draft Order does not require any editing.
Short Defence
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/shdv5zqlsi9uyeqzdeje7/Short-defence-copy.pdf?rlkey=t1w1alqq30ndoohhdocesq6nq&dl=0
Draft Order for the Short Defence
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yjj8nwoc6sknmc9uawecf/short-defence-order-copy-3.pdf?rlkey=y3xyz2s8vumu0k3webocx9sza&dl=0
If you’ve edited the header info with the claimant name and your
name, claim number and signed and dated it, you can email both
documents as PDF attachments to
claimresponses.cnbc@justice.gov.uk and CC in yourself. The
subject of the email must include the claim number, preferably
as “claimant name v your name [claim number]”. In the body, just
say “Please see attached PDF Defence and Draft Order for case
(Claimant name v your name [Claim number])”.
You must receive an auto-response from the CNBC which should be
almost immediate. If you don’t receive on after a few minutes,
try again. If still no auto-response, try using a different
email agent.
For info, the Claimant is the PPC, it the solicitor.
#Post#: 35854--------------------------------------------------
Re: New court claim issued - 28th Aug
DIR By: cm790
Date: September 6, 2024, 12:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> For now, have you completed the AoS as advised?
>
> Obviously POPLA didn’t accept the PoFA no Hirer liability. At
any stage was the hirer identified as the driver? If the driver
has been identified, PoFA ceases to be relevant.
>
> As this is a claim filed by DCB Legal, as long as a defence is
submitted, any defence, it is 99% likely to end as a
discontinuation just before any hearing date. It is their modus
operandi. However, we have to take into account the 1% chance it
would actually end up as a hearing.
>
> For now, the most important thing is to make sure the AoS is
done. The long defence from the MSE forum that you have shown
us, is not necessary. What happened at POPLA is irrelevant to
the situation now.
>
> Imagine that you had never known anything about this PCN and
the first you heard about it was what is in the Particulars of
Claim (PoC). Based on that woefully inadequate information, how
would you defend yourself? The claim form is the only
information you have.
>
> Think about what you could glean from that bit of information
and then think how you answer the allegation? Is the date shown
the actual date that the PCN was issued or is it the date of the
alleged parking contravention? Is the sum of the alleged debt
correct? How much is the charge and how much is damages or debt
recovery fees? Is the interest correctly calculated from
whatever date it became due? If you are being accused of being
the driver, can they prove that allegation? If they are claiming
that you are the Keeper, can they prove keeper liability?
>
> Remember, the burden of proof is on the claimant to prove
their claim, not on the defendant. Do not put words or details
not alleged into any defence that gives them ammunition to use
against you.
>
> Maybe a read of CPR 16.4 would help you understand whether
they have complied with all its requirements. After all, rules
are rules and if they have failed to comply with any, their
claim can be argued to be deficient and struck out.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for both of your responses.
I have completed the AoS so I will have a good read of what you
have put and respond shortly.
#Post#: 35858--------------------------------------------------
Re: New court claim issued - 28th Aug
DIR By: cm790
Date: September 6, 2024, 2:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> For now, have you completed the AoS as advised?
>
> Obviously POPLA didn’t accept the PoFA no Hirer liability. At
any stage was the hirer identified as the driver? If the driver
has been identified, PoFA ceases to be relevant.
>
> As this is a claim filed by DCB Legal, as long as a defence is
submitted, any defence, it is 99% likely to end as a
discontinuation just before any hearing date. It is their modus
operandi. However, we have to take into account the 1% chance it
would actually end up as a hearing.
>
> For now, the most important thing is to make sure the AoS is
done. The long defence from the MSE forum that you have shown
us, is not necessary. What happened at POPLA is irrelevant to
the situation now.
>
> Imagine that you had never known anything about this PCN and
the first you heard about it was what is in the Particulars of
Claim (PoC). Based on that woefully inadequate information, how
would you defend yourself? The claim form is the only
information you have.
>
> Think about what you could glean from that bit of information
and then think how you answer the allegation? Is the date shown
the actual date that the PCN was issued or is it the date of the
alleged parking contravention? Is the sum of the alleged debt
correct? How much is the charge and how much is damages or debt
recovery fees? Is the interest correctly calculated from
whatever date it became due? If you are being accused of being
the driver, can they prove that allegation? If they are claiming
that you are the Keeper, can they prove keeper liability?
>
> Remember, the burden of proof is on the claimant to prove
their claim, not on the defendant. Do not put words or details
not alleged into any defence that gives them ammunition to use
against you.
>
> Maybe a read of CPR 16.4 would help you understand whether
they have complied with all its requirements. After all, rules
are rules and if they have failed to comply with any, their
claim can be argued to be deficient and struck out.
>
--- End Quote ---
- Having reviewed the documentation between myself, ECP, and
POPLA, at no point has the hirer been identified as the driver.
- To address the very helpful points you have made:
I received a letter from my finance company (who are the
registered keeper) on 05/06/2020. Attached to this was a copy of
the NtK dated 27/05/2020, with the same issue date. The date of
the event on this letter is 19/05/2020, which is the same date
as the PoC.
ECP sent a notice to the hirer on 11/06/2020 with an event date
of 19/05/2020.
- I used our friend ChatGPT to calculate the interest, and this
was the result:
I used 21 days from 11/06/2020 so 02/07/2020.
The interest accrued on the fine would be approximately £56.90,
making the total amount due £226.90, assuming the notice to
hirer was dated 11/06/2020, with 21 days to pay the fine at an
8% annual interest rate.
They are asking for £231.31 on the PoC.
Would I use a different date to calculate this?
Other than notifying ECP of my address for correspondence on
15/06/2020, there has been no admission of liability or
identification of the driver.
I'll have a read of CPR 16.4 and follow this post up.
Thanks again.
I entered the PoC against CPR 16.4 and this was the result:
Based on the information provided, it appears that the claimant
has complied with the requirements of CPR 16.4. Their
particulars of claim include the necessary elements: a concise
statement of facts, the amount claimed, the interest, and a
reference to costs and court fees.
Unless of course the interest amount is wrong.
#Post#: 35899--------------------------------------------------
Re: New court claim issued - 28th Aug
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 6, 2024, 9:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
OP, have the PoC disappeared?
#Post#: 35900--------------------------------------------------
Re: New court claim issued - 28th Aug
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: September 6, 2024, 9:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cm790 link ---
>
> I used our friend ChatGPT
>
--- End Quote ---
I say this in the spirit of helping you... I think you need to
be careful how much you rely on ChatGPT. I just asked it how
many times the letter 'r' appears in 'strawberry':
HTML https://i.imgur.com/cCPEYIQ.png
If it can't count how many times a letter appears in a word, I'm
not sure I'd trust it to offer me legal advice when I was being
sued.
#Post#: 35902--------------------------------------------------
Re: New court claim issued - 28th Aug
DIR By: b789
Date: September 6, 2024, 9:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Do you know the date interest is calculated from? Interest isn't
calculated from the date of the issue of the PCN. Interest is
calculated from the "past due" date of the PCN. Do you know when
that date was? Have you calculated the interest on the principal
sum or on the total sum which includes debt recovery fees and or
damages.
Based solely on the information in the PoC, how on earth can you
calculate anything? The PoC state that the PCN was issued on
x/x/xx. No it wasn't. The PCN was issued after they applied for
the Keeper data from the DVLA.
What does PoFA 9(4)(5) say about the charge?
Stop using ChatGPT as though it is infallible. It is very error
prone when it comes to doing a simple comparison to things,
especially when it cones to UK law.
#Post#: 35907--------------------------------------------------
Re: New court claim issued - 28th Aug
DIR By: cm790
Date: September 6, 2024, 9:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> OP, have the PoC disappeared?
>
--- End Quote ---
Sorry, I redacted the bits I had missed and couldn't update the
link.
Here it is:
HTML https://emergencyservicechallenge.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Claim-form-front-page-2.png
#Post#: 36489--------------------------------------------------
Re: New court claim issued - 28th Aug
DIR By: cm790
Date: September 11, 2024, 12:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> Do you know the date interest is calculated from? Interest
isn't calculated from the date of the issue of the PCN. Interest
is calculated from the "past due" date of the PCN. Do you know
when that date was? Have you calculated the interest on the
principal sum or on the total sum which includes debt recovery
fees and or damages.
>
> Based solely on the information in the PoC, how on earth can
you calculate anything? The PoC state that the PCN was issued on
x/x/xx. No it wasn't. The PCN was issued after they applied for
the Keeper data from the DVLA.
>
> What does PoFA 9(4)(5) say about the charge?
>
> Stop using ChatGPT as though it is infallible. It is very
error prone when it comes to doing a simple comparison to
things, especially when it cones to UK law.
>
--- End Quote ---
Having read what you've attached and what you've written here, I
understand what you're explaining now. Thank you for taking the
time to provide the advice.
I will get the defence signed.
I'm going away from 19th - 29th Sept so I won't have access to
emails during that time.
Based on that, what would be the ideal date to send the defence?
#Post#: 36492--------------------------------------------------
Re: New court claim issued - 28th Aug
DIR By: b789
Date: September 11, 2024, 12:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
As long as you don't miss the deadline to email the defence, it
doesn't really matter. The next step after submitting the
defence is the N180 DQ which doesn't happen for several weeks at
least.
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