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#Post#: 35413--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: September 3, 2024, 4:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If you want to have the best possible and most comprehensive
advice then please follow the instructions in the sticky post at
the top of this forum READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR
CASE!**
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/.<br
/>It's only required to redact your name & address where it's
present. Please leave all other information visible, especially
the PCN reference numbers, the vehicle reg, all dates and times
and locations and the like.
#Post#: 35415--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: September 3, 2024, 4:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The earliest outstanding PCN is 14/12/22 so the earliest an NTO
could be sent is about 12/1/23 so this is the crucial time for
trying to find out if you'd just updated the V5C as this is
solid ground for succeeding with an out of time application.
Not sure, but DVLA may have records of previous changes. But
without this info it's hard to proceed.
When you dealt with Islington at the time they should have told
you about the three other PCNs of course, which is another
point.
#Post#: 35441--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 3, 2024, 6:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
+1.
OP, let's try and put this in some sort of order pl.
12 Dec. 2022 - parked on DYL; (for the moment the why is not
relevant)
12-22nd - car was stationary(to be confirmed);
22 Dec. 2022 - moved car at which point 2 PCNs found:
PCNs dated 21 and 22nd Dec for waiting in restricted street
challenged by email some time before 18 Jan. 2023. (exact date
unknown but presumably after expiry of 14-day discount period)
on which date an email response from authority upheld one PCN
and cancelled another, but we don't know which!
3 NoEs received with unknown issue dates (one is 29 Aug. so not
'3 days ago counting back from yesterday - OP leave in dates and
PCN numbers).
Latest date for payment before addition of Enforcement Fee in
each case is 16 Sept.
None of the post-PCN statutory enforcement notices in respect of
the 3 missing PCNs was received.
The registered keeper moved in Dec. 2022. At the earliest the
NTOs would have been issued late Jan. 2023.
OP, all the above shows when stripped to its essence is that the
NTOs (and therefore every other notice issued by the authority)
were not sent to a current address for the keeper. We're not
talking about extended periods, according to you the previous
V5C would have been updated promptly when you moved in order to
present an amended V5C to the council for your parking permit.
This simple and very short submission should succeed with TEC
provided you can show when your V5C was updated. IMO, it's this
crucial.
Pl don't confuse council departments. Simply because you
notified the council regarding your permit would not affect the
address used for enforcement purposes, the link here is your
reasoning that the V5C would actually have been updated, even if
slightly after 22 Dec.
When was your permit issued?
#Post#: 35459--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: September 3, 2024, 8:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> I don't know the exact amounts for a judge review, but it's
around £115 for a papers-based review, and circa £460 for an
interview with the judge "in chambers". Without some hard
information on when your V5 was updated, it is difficult to see
any OOTs succeeding. You can get a "second opinion" here: -
> www.baillifadviceonline.co.uk
>
> At the moment, the amounts are at their minimum, with the
amount owing the council, plus the bailiff £75 fee for each PCN.
If bailiffs visit, you get another £235 added on to the amount
for each PCN.
>
> In a situation like this, it is best to pay the amount
demanded to prevent it going up even more. Paying has no effect
on whether an OOT will succeed or not, so I think you need to
consider your next step very carefully. TEC are taking ages to
process OOTs at the moment, and what you don't want is the
bailiffs sneaking in and adding £235 x 3 to the amount demanded.
I'm afraid that cases like yours that we frequently see on this
forum, rarely turn out well, sorry to have to say it.
>
--- End Quote ---
The enforcement agent (bailiff) can only load £235 once onto the
charges owing, no matter how many Notices of Enforcement (one
for each PCN) are being enforced.
The fee for a review by a district judge is £119 for a hearing
on the papers only. And £303 for a hearing in person. One fee
payable for each application for a review, one review per PCN.
The fees are not refundable and cannot normally be claimed as
costs even if your appeals to the Adjudicator are ultimately
successful. The only exception is if your are entitled to an
EX160 fee remission.
The advice to pay up now and then submit Out of Time Statutory
Declarations at a later date is not without risks. This advice
only came in during Covid and post Covid as there are long
delays with the TEC informing the Enforcement Authorities that
an Out of Time application has been submitted. This leaves you
unprotected from the bailiff duing the delay.
Pre Covid the TEC would inform the EA electronically each day of
any such applications received before 4pm on a working day. The
EA was then compelled to call of bailiff enforcement immediately
until the TEC had issued a decision. Leave it too long between
payamnt and OOT and the Enforcement Authority will object on the
grounds that you closed the case.
#Post#: 35462--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 3, 2024, 8:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
? If you pay then there's NO risk of further enforcement, I
think Incandescent has got the pros and cons back to front.
Procedurally:
If you pay:
Worst case: OOT not accepted, you're out £279 *3
Best case: OOT accepted and all payments refunded.
If you don't:
Worst case: you're out 3*?£279+a further £235.
Best case:
As above.
NEITHER option affects the likelihood of success with the OOT,
this will in all probability be determined by the simple issue
of when your V5C was updated after you moved in Nov. 2022.
You should also write to the council because:
1. They have discretion to cancel at any time, and
2. It gives them a detailed and early heads-up regarding your
OOT if these are submitted( it is plural, one OOT per PCN).
#Post#: 35481--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: September 3, 2024, 9:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> [quote author=Incandescent link=topic=2992.msg35409#msg35409
date=1725353424]
> I don't know the exact amounts for a judge review, but it's
around £115 for a papers-based review, and circa £460 for an
interview with the judge "in chambers". Without some hard
information on when your V5 was updated, it is difficult to see
any OOTs succeeding. You can get a "second opinion" here: -
> www.baillifadviceonline.co.uk
>
> At the moment, the amounts are at their minimum, with the
amount owing the council, plus the bailiff £75 fee for each PCN.
If bailiffs visit, you get another £235 added on to the amount
for each PCN.
>
> In a situation like this, it is best to pay the amount
demanded to prevent it going up even more. Paying has no effect
on whether an OOT will succeed or not, so I think you need to
consider your next step very carefully. TEC are taking ages to
process OOTs at the moment, and what you don't want is the
bailiffs sneaking in and adding £235 x 3 to the amount demanded.
I'm afraid that cases like yours that we frequently see on this
forum, rarely turn out well, sorry to have to say it.
>
--- End Quote ---
The enforcement agent (bailiff) can only load £235 once onto the
charges owing, no matter how many Notices of Enforcement (one
for each PCN) are being enforced.
The fee for a review by a district judge is £119 for a hearing
on the papers only. And £303 for a hearing in person. One fee
payable for each application for a review, one review per PCN.
The fees are not refundable and cannot normally be claimed as
costs even if your appeals to the Adjudicator are ultimately
successful. The only exception is if your are entitled to an
EX160 fee remission.
The advice to pay up now and then submit Out of Time Statutory
Declarations at a later date is not without risks. This advice
only came in during Covid and post Covid as there are long
delays with the TEC informing the Enforcement Authorities that
an Out of Time application has been submitted. This leaves you
unprotected from the bailiff duing the delay.
Pre Covid the TEC would inform the EA electronically each day of
any such applications received before 4pm on a working day. The
EA was then compelled to call of bailiff enforcement immediately
until the TEC had issued a decision. Leave it too long between
payamnt and OOT and the Enforcement Authority will object on the
grounds that you closed the case.
[/quote]
Thanks for correcting my amounts for a review. So now,
hopefully, the OP can do some arithmetic to see the cheapest
option !
#Post#: 35544--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: starling_101
Date: September 3, 2024, 4:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks all for the responses.
I will see if I can find out when we updated the V5C with the
DVLA.
So, it seems I understand that it would be best to:
1. Submit an OOT to the council.
2. If success, great - pay initial PCN *3.
3. If no success before the 16/09/2024, pay the £279*3 fees.
4. Then, in this case either the OOT success may happen after
16/09/2024 and all fees are refunded.
OR/
It is unsuccessful and the council pass on to the TEC and there
is another decision. If success at this point, again we pay the
PCNs, all fees refunded.
But, if still no success, we decide whether we proceed to a
judge review, in which case 119*3 is non recoverable, plus
potentially the 279*3. Or 119*3 plus the price of the original
PCNs.
The consensus seems to be the V5C date is important.
Questions
I) Is the above correct as you understand it?
2. If we find out the V5C was updated a long time after moving
in (as I say, I think this is unlikely but I really can't be
sure), do we still have a case for appeal or does this fall on
us?
3. What if I can't find the info from the DVLA?
4. The council have asked for the appeal form to be sent to them
- I'm not sure if it's PE2 or PE3? It's within 36 days of these
CDER letters, but obviously a lot longer than that from the
initial PCNs?
#Post#: 35547--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: September 3, 2024, 4:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Statutory Declarations and Witness Statement whether in or
out-of-time are submitted to the Traffic Enforcement Centre not
the council. They are court documents. Details of those that are
out-of-time are passed on by TEC to the council who can object
to them. In time submissions are automatically accepted by TEC,
(assuming the form has been filled in correctly !).
The V5C update date is very important, indeed your case hinges
around it. We see so many cases where the OP didn't update the
V5C for several months, ( or even years; yes, really !!), or
reported address change to driving licence thinking it updated
the V5C as well.
#Post#: 35561--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: Pressman
Date: September 3, 2024, 11:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: starling_101 link ---
>
> Yes, there are three addresses (I.e. the car was registered to
a previous address before we moved in December 2022, and then we
moved again in November 2023).
>
> 1. I don't know when we updated the log book address as I
don't have a record of it unfortunately.
> 2. Yes there is a chance it was registered at the previous
address (but I'd have thought unlikely as I would have expected
us to have to update it in December 2022 to get the council
parking permit in the first place).
>
> Either way we didn't receive the letters at the time.
>
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
>
> Either way we didn't receive the letters at the time.
>
--- End Quote ---
See if this applies to you:
HTML https://www.nationalbailiffadvice.uk/moved-bailiffs-left-a-document-at-old-address.html
#Post#: 35572--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 4, 2024, 3:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Do not lose sight of the deadline of 16 Sept. given in the NoEs.
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