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#Post#: 35366--------------------------------------------------
Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: starling_101
Date: September 2, 2024, 2:08 pm
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Good evening - thanks in advance for any help you can give me
with the below issue which I imagine is a little unusual.
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1. L B of Islington (Road Traffic) (JBW)
Thane Villas [Zone F] Waiting and Loading. Code 1 restricted
street during prescribed hours.
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2. Parked on double yellow lines, next (but outside of) marked
bay on 12/12/2022.
We were new to the area having only just moved in recently and
did not know where the bays were.
It was snowing with thick snow and so none of the road markings
were visible on parking initially, hence the reason for parking
on double yellows.
When coming back to the car on 22/08/2022 we had two PCNs on the
windshield (and could see the car was on double yellows).
We moved the car to the space (we had a permit and were entitled
to park on the road for this whole period, if in a space).
I don't believe we ever received a letter regarding the PCNs
(just the two on the windshield).
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We emailed the council at the time, with pictures of the snow in
the street that we had taken on the day by chance.
They agreed to cancel one PCN (£65) as a " gesture of goodwill",
however we paid the other (£65).
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We have moved to a different address and have just come home to
find three letters from a debt collector 'CDER group', regarding
three PCNs during this same parking period (14th, 19th and 20th
December 2022).
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Location: Thane Villas [Zone F] Waiting and Loading. Code 1
restricted street during prescribed hours.
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The three letters are each demanding £279, due to a £204 alleged
debt and £75 charge from CDER. This therefore totals around
£800.
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This is the first we have heard about these three PCNs, despite
discussion with Islington council at the time about the other
two PCNs.
Islington never got in touch, but the CDER letters were only
issued three days ago.
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Attached are the new letters.
Also attached is the original appeal email sent in January 2023,
and an updated email we sent tonight (before we had the idea of
getting advice sorry).
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HTML https://imgur.com/a/yABuViB
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We would really appreciate any help! (Re: right to appeal given
it is so long, what the next steps we should take are).
Thanks
#Post#: 35370--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: September 2, 2024, 2:38 pm
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Looks like they ticketed the car five times and have activated
the enforcement process.
The paperwork - NTOs, charge certificates, order for recoveries
- will have gone to the registered address of the vehicle
probably starting in January 2023. What address is on the V5C
logbook? When did you move?
You've blanked all the PCN details so we can't check things.
#Post#: 35381--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: starling_101
Date: September 2, 2024, 3:33 pm
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Yes, that's correct.
Address on the V5C logbook is now our current address (i.e. not
the address we were living at during the initial PCN), however
at the time of the issue I'm not so sure whether it had been
updated or not given it was so early after we moved.
We lived at the property for a year after the incident though
(moved to this property November 2023), so I'd be surprised if I
hadn't updated the logbook address in all that time.
#Post#: 35383--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: September 2, 2024, 3:50 pm
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Go on the 'Check VED' website and enter your car reg number. Go
to the bottom of the 'Vehicle Details' listing and you'll see
when the V5C was last updated
HTML https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax
#Post#: 35384--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: starling_101
Date: September 2, 2024, 3:54 pm
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Thanks.
Yes it was updated in December 2023. So has been correct for
around 9 months, but can't be sure about when we received the
PCN.
Does this change the approach either way?
#Post#: 35390--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: September 2, 2024, 5:07 pm
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So you moved in November 2023 and updated the logbook in
December.
But this doesn't explain why you received none of the notice to
owners and subsequent letters at your previous address(es).
Was the previous address on the logbook correct and when did you
change it to that address?
Is there a chance that the logbook had yet another previous
address and wasn't changed until you moved again?
It seems three addresses involved?
Is the car leased?
#Post#: 35392--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: starling_101
Date: September 2, 2024, 5:33 pm
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Yes, there are three addresses (I.e. the car was registered to a
previous address before we moved in December 2022, and then we
moved again in November 2023).
1. I don't know when we updated the log book address as I don't
have a record of it unfortunately.
2. Yes there is a chance it was registered at the previous
address (but I'd have thought unlikely as I would have expected
us to have to update it in December 2022 to get the council
parking permit in the first place).
Either way we didn't receive the letters at the time.
The car is not leased no.
Thanks
#Post#: 35394--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: September 2, 2024, 6:05 pm
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--- Quote ---
> This is the first we have heard about these three PCNs,
despite discussion with Islington council at the time about the
other two PCNs.
--- End Quote ---
But your "at the time" for PCNs served in August 2022 would have
been in that month and maybe September, and even October, but
the subsequent PCNs were for 14th, 19th and 20th December 2022,
so how could Islington know about them as they would not have
even ben served when you were in discussion with Islington on
the August PCNs ?
Basically our contributions and questions are in order to find
out if you have a good case to present in an Out-of-Time Witness
Statement to TEC stating that you never received the PCNs. You
have to submit one per PCN. ALmost all cases of bailiffs at the
door and non-receipt of the statutory enforcement documents come
down to an incorrect address on the V5C. This may be because of
failure to keep it up-to-date, or an error in the address not
noticed at the time of update. So you really do need to
determine when you updated your V5 after moving in November
2022. There is a 28 days in which to submit representations or
pay, then, when that period expires, the council request the
name and address of the keeper from the DVLA. They only do this
once and used it for all the statutory documents sent after the
PCNs were served to the car. So, knowing the PCN dates, you can
work out an approximate date when the councul would have
requested details from DVLA. This is an on-line messaging
process, and with most councils, is automatically loaded onto
their enforcement computer system.
Out-of-Time submissions give the enforcing authority an option
to object to them, and they inevitably do so, at which point the
TEC court officer usually refuses the OOT, and the respondent
has to ask for a review by a county court judge. This costs
money and is not normally recoverable. Sorry, but this is the
predicament you are in; you have nothing else available to you
to get the process reverted to the PCNs.
#Post#: 35403--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: starling_101
Date: September 3, 2024, 2:42 am
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Sorry, I think the date on the original post is slightly off.
All five were December 2022, all within the same week, but only
two stickers appeared on the car (hence us knowing about only
two of them).
That answer is very helpful thank you.
I can't see how I would know previous dates of V5C address
change unfortunately, but given we had just moved in, it makes
sense that the letters would have gone to the previous address
before switching over, hence us not receiving them.
So, i) is this £75 charge from CDER something we have to pay
(regardless of whether they become PCNs)?
ii) is the cost of letting this go to a county court judge more
expensive than the PCNs themselves anyway (i.e. around £600)?
iii) if it did go to the judge as you suggest is really the only
option now, how are they likely to rule given the circumstances?
Thanks again
#Post#: 35409--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty Charge Notice; CDER debt collection letter; Moved
address. ?Possibly ballif stage.
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: September 3, 2024, 3:50 am
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I don't know the exact amounts for a judge review, but it's
around £115 for a papers-based review, and circa £460 for an
interview with the judge "in chambers". Without some hard
information on when your V5 was updated, it is difficult to see
any OOTs succeeding. You can get a "second opinion" here: -
www.baillifadviceonline.co.uk
At the moment, the amounts are at their minimum, with the amount
owing the council, plus the bailiff £75 fee for each PCN. If
bailiffs visit, you get another £235 added on to the amount for
each PCN.
In a situation like this, it is best to pay the amount demanded
to prevent it going up even more. Paying has no effect on
whether an OOT will succeed or not, so I think you need to
consider your next step very carefully. TEC are taking ages to
process OOTs at the moment, and what you don't want is the
bailiffs sneaking in and adding £235 x 3 to the amount demanded.
I'm afraid that cases like yours that we frequently see on this
forum, rarely turn out well, sorry to have to say it.
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