DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Private parking tickets
*****************************************************
#Post#: 2280--------------------------------------------------
CPM parking on double yellow in private land (carried over from
pepipoo)
DIR By: BertieW
Date: July 31, 2023, 5:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi all,
carrying over post from pepipoo:
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149253&st=20
Need advice on two points as the well seems to have dried up
over there:
- How can I determine if CPM has complied with Pofa and hold the
keeper liable? they assert:
--- Quote ---
> Please be advised that the parking charge notice was issued as
a breach of contract occurred. The vehicle was parked in a
manner whereby the driver became liable for a Parking Charge
Notice and therefore The Protection of Freedom Act 2012 is
irrelevant and does not apply.
--- End Quote ---
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=149253&view=findpost&p=1785856
- as the prev. RK, I have sold the car and have expatriated (for
at-least a couple of years)* In the members' experience, would
it be reasonable to expect a PPC (CPM) to give up because of
this, or would they still pursue (based on response to q1, i.e.
RK liability)?
*Update to HMRC on the changed tax status is pending but will be
done shortly, but inevitably some form of assets will remain in
the UK.
Thanks
#Post#: 2284--------------------------------------------------
Re: CPM parking on double yellow in private land (carried over
from pepipoo)
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: July 31, 2023, 6:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: BertieW link ---
>
> carrying over post from pepipoo:
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149253&st=20
>
--- End Quote ---
It would be wise to re-post the salient details and images from
your PePiPoo thread here - this site was set up because there's
a credible risk that PePiPoo will go offline permanently in a
few months' time.
--- Quote from: BertieW link ---
>
>
>
- How can I determine if CPM has complied with Pofa and hold the
keeper liable? they assert:
> [quote]Please be advised that the parking charge notice was
issued as a breach of contract occurred. The vehicle was parked
in a manner whereby the driver became liable for a Parking
Charge Notice and therefore The Protection of Freedom Act 2012
is irrelevant and does not apply.
--- End Quote ---
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=149253&view=findpost&p=1785856
[/quote]
Their statement is nonsense - PoFA is only 'irrelevant' if they
know who the driver is - if they're seeking to hold the
registered keeper liable they need to comply with it. Looking at
their notice, I'd argue it doesn't comply - for starters,
they've not provided the warning required by 9(2)(f):
[indent](f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days
beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under
paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a
current address for service for the driver, the creditor will
(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)
have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount
as remains unpaid;[/indent]
Their notice doesn't mention the part in (ii), it just says if
the amount remains unpaid they will have the right to recover
from the driver. That being said, it's not a particularly strong
defence point on its own - although they arguably shouldn't,
we've seen cases where judges have either failed to understand
the requirements of PoFA, or accept 'broad compliance', and
overlook what they see as technical/minor errors like that
(although I'd argue it's not necessarily minor, keeper vs driver
can be an important distinction).
--- Quote from: BertieW link ---
>
> as the prev. RK, I have sold the car and have expatriated (for
at-least a couple of years)* In the members' experience, would
it be reasonable to expect a PPC (CPM) to give up because of
this, or would they still pursue (based on response to q1, i.e.
RK liability)?
> *Update to HMRC on the changed tax status is pending but will
be done shortly, but inevitably some form of assets will remain
in the UK.
--- End Quote ---
UK Car Park Management can be a litigious bunch, so you should
work on the assumption they will continue to pursue you. Do you
have a UK address at which you can be contacted, or are you now
permanently abroad? If the address to which the notices were
sent is no longer one at which you can be contacted, you should
provide them with your updated address for service. If that is a
foreign address, then as well as emailing their Data Protection
Officer (DPO), it could be wise to send them a letter by post
from said address (perhaps alongside a redacted bill/other
document verifying the new address). There's obviously a small
cost to doing this, but helps overcome any scepticism CPM might
hold about the accuracy of the information.
I haven't trawled the PePiPoo thread in great detail yet, but I
note from the dates that quite some time has elapsed between the
issue of the original notice and now - I presume you chose not
to bother with an appeal to the IAS (I wouldn't blame you)? If
so, there aren't any further appeal stages, it's a case of
waiting to see if they decide to go to court.
#Post#: 2312--------------------------------------------------
Re: CPM parking on double yellow in private land (carried over
from pepipoo)
DIR By: guest179
Date: August 1, 2023, 7:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Need advice on two points as the well seems to have dried up
over there:
In all honesty you do not need advice on these points at
present.
As per DWMB2, all that remains procedurally if they wish to
pursue the matter is to take you to court to do which they need
a serviceable address.
Let's not dance around this point: you are abroad for an
extended period but are keeping a foot on the ground here.
Presumably you have not cut yourself off from everyone, both
formal and informal, therefore there will be an address at which
you can be contacted. IMO you should always ensure they can
contact you.
#Post#: 2319--------------------------------------------------
Re: CPM parking on double yellow in private land (carried over
from pepipoo)
DIR By: BertieW
Date: August 1, 2023, 8:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you both, noted and understood the points mentioned;
exactly the type of information I was looking for, so much
appreciated.
Yes, I didn't appeal via IAS, but that was purely due to being
confused about (due to my naivety) the suggestion provided on
pepipoo; nevertheless, due to being preoccupied with packing up
and moving, i missed the 21day deadline to appeal. It is a
relief to know that the IAS appeal isn't a mandatory step in
this process (and now with that hindsight, the comment on
pepipoo from the rookie makes sense to me).
Yes, I do have a UK forwarding address and I will inform CPM of
that. I will also post the details here from pepipoo in a few
days per DWMB2's suggestion.
Thanks
#Post#: 2323--------------------------------------------------
Re: CPM parking on double yellow in private land (carried over
from pepipoo)
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: August 1, 2023, 9:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: BertieW link ---
>
> It is a relief to know that the IAS appeal isn't a mandatory
step in this process (and now with that hindsight, the comment
on pepipoo from the rookie makes sense to me).
>
--- End Quote ---
The success rate at the IAS is so low that they're described by
many as a kangaroo court - if one has the time, and a
particularly strong case, then appealing to them provides
another roll of the dice before court, but given the slim chance
of success then not doing so doesn't matter too much.
#Post#: 4316--------------------------------------------------
Re: CPM parking on double yellow in private land (carried over
from pepipoo)
DIR By: BertieW
Date: September 4, 2023, 5:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi all,
Post 1 of 2:
By way of an update, I have received two letters now from "Debt
Recovery Plus", both addressed to my old address, but received
at the current forwarding address through the postal redirection
service. I am ignoring both as per advice given in similar posts
over in Pepipoo.
I did notify CPM of my change of address via email to both their
generic info@uk-cpm.com email and also to the DPO at
dpo@uk-cpm.com; because I don't have any other email / contact
address for them due to the case being "passed to their legal
team". The response received from the generic info email is
somewhat confusing and I am not sure how much of a legal
scrutiny they can stand in court if it goes that far - however,
that's one to worry when it [hopefully not] gets to that stage.
Images linked below (thanks DWMB2 for your message - i took
screenshots rather than attach the pdf):
1. Email to CPM for address change:
HTML https://ibb.co/bFSXNHm
2. Email response from CPM:
HTML https://ibb.co/2YzwFgn
#Post#: 4319--------------------------------------------------
Re: CPM parking on double yellow in private land (carried over
from pepipoo)
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: September 4, 2023, 5:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
What a bizarre response - they can't access the DVLA's data
again so that is irrelevant. They also don't need to use the
electoral register as you have provided them with your new
permanent address.
#Post#: 18667--------------------------------------------------
Re: CPM parking on double yellow in private land (carried over
from pepipoo)
DIR By: BertieW
Date: March 31, 2024, 12:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi all,
I have now received a Letter Before Claim from Gladstones dated
08/03/24.
Despite my informing CPM last year about a new UK forwarding
address (and receiving the bizarre response as previously
posted), all these letters are being posted to the old address
and I only get to know about the ones that come through the
royal mail redirection (which is also about to expire).
Anyways, given the LBC mentions a 30day deadline if I intend to
contest - do I need to do anything? I am still overseas so it
will all have to be online if that is possible? Hence, also the
delay in my recieving notification of the letter.
LBC images:
HTML https://ibb.co/CBmnj42
HTML https://ibb.co/0ZP0YdY
HTML https://ibb.co/H4fTRdh
HTML https://ibb.co/mcT0Jsk
Thanks.
#Post#: 18711--------------------------------------------------
Re: CPM parking on double yellow in private land (carried over
from pepipoo)
DIR By: b789
Date: March 31, 2024, 4:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If they're sending the post to your old address, that is because
you didn't actually tell them to erase your old address. You now
need to email the DPO at both CPM and Gladstone's with the
following:
---------------------------------------------------------
To the DPO,
This is a data rectification notice. I require you to rectify
your records with my current address for service of documents.
My current address is:
XXX Current address XXX
Once you have updated your records I require you to erase my old
address. If you have disclosed my personal data to others, you
must contact each recipient and inform them of the
rectification. I also require you to inform me about these
recipients.
You must comply with a request for data rectification without
undue delay and at the latest within one month of receipt of
this request.
Failure to follow or comply with this data rectification request
will render you and your agents liable under the UK GDPR
(Article (5)(1)(d)).
---------------------------------------------------------
With regards to the LoC, you should respond robustly with
something along these lines:
Dear Sirs,
Your Letter Before Claim contains insufficient detail of the
claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places
reliance upon and thus is in complete contravention of the
Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims.
I am the registered keeper of the vehicle. I am not obliged to
identify the driver and I decline to do so. As there is no legal
presumption that the keeper of a vehicle was its driver on any
particular occasion, your client cannot pursue me as driver as
per VCS v Edward H0KF6C9C [2023]
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yvxek3kfwtb3qent3lj6y/VCS-Limited-v-Ian-Mark-Edward-H0KF6C9C.pdf?rlkey=niecohfdtj1n1ysh5prbsp52p&dl=0.
As you and your client are well aware, there can be no keeper
liability as defined in Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms
Act 2012 as they have already stated that they are not relying
on the Act. So your client cannot pursue me as keeper.
As your client cannot pursue me as driver or keeper, it would be
an abuse of the court’s process for your client to issue a claim
against me and I will defend any such claim vigorously and seek
costs in relation to your client’s unreasonable and vexatious
conduct under Part 27.14(2)(g)
As your letter lacks specificity and breaches the requirements
of the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs
3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2) as well as the Practice Direction -
Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)), you must treat
this letter as a formal request for all of the
documents/information that the protocol now requires your client
to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without
complying with that protocol.
As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements
of both the Practice Direction and the Pre-Action Protocol for
debt claims and your client, as a serial litigator of debt
claims, should likewise be aware of them. As you (and your
client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all
potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its
express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim
and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable
parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a
settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the
costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It
is embarrassing that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer
a vague and un-evidenced 'Letter Before Claim' in complete
ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the
Pre-Action Protocol.
I confirm that, once I am in receipt of a Letter Before Claim
that complies with the requirements of para 3.1 (a) of the
Pre-Action Protocol, I shall then seek advice and submit a
formal response within 30 days, as required by the Protocol.
Thus, I require your client to comply with its obligations by
sending me the following information/documents:
1. An explanation of the cause of action
2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of
POFA 2012
4. what the details of the claim are; for how long it is claimed
the vehicle was parked, how the monies being claimed arose and
have been calculated
5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the
date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and
provide to me a copy of that contract.
6. If the claim is for a contractual breach, photographs showing
the vehicle was parked in contravention of said contract.
7. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
8. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under
which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by
the IPC Code of Practice v8 Appendix 1.
9. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
10. Photographs of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of
font, height at which displayed) at the time of any alleged
contravention.
11. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any
interest and administrative or other charges added
12. Am I to understand that the additional £70 represents what
is dressed up as a 'Debt Recovery' fee, and if so, is this nett
or inclusive of VAT? If the latter, would you kindly explain why
I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT?
13. With regard to the principal alleged PCN sum: Is this
damages, or will it be pleaded as consideration for parking?
I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a)
and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to
comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).
If your client does not provide me with this information then I
put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb
Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch),
Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part
20) Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church
Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann
Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions
on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant
to paragraphs 13, 15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice
Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.
Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided
this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged
claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is
entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for
your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then
I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the
Practice Direction and an order that this information is
provided.
Yours faithfully
#Post#: 18715--------------------------------------------------
Re: CPM parking on double yellow in private land (carried over
from pepipoo)
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: March 31, 2024, 5:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: BertieW link ---
>
> I am still overseas so it will all have to be online if that
is possible?
>
--- End Quote ---
If/when they issue a claim, your acknowledgement of service can
be done online via the Money Claim Online (MCOL) system. Your
defence and witness statements can be submitted via email. The
Claim Form itself and any subsequent documents will be sent by
post however, so as b789 notes, correcting your address is
vital, as is ensuring that you have a process in place for
continuing to receive and respond to post.
Regarding the hearing itself, anecdotally most people we see
going to court on the forums opt for an in-person hearing in the
court. However, when it gets to the 'Directions Questionnaire'
stage, you can indicate that you are happy for the case to be
determined without a hearing (aka on the papers). The obvious
advantage of this is that you don't need to attend, the
potential downside is that you won't be there to answer any
questions/clarify anything, and the judge will be making a
decision solely on the basis of written submissions.
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 3
DIR Next Page