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#Post#: 34076--------------------------------------------------
New driver 61 in a 30
DIR By: AAN
Date: August 21, 2024, 2:08 pm
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Hi I got caught doing 61 in a 30 by a mobile unit in Feb when I
was 17 so am a new driver. Recently recieved my court documents
which I have pleaded guilty and asked for a court date. I got
advice from a solicitor who said they could have a go at getting
me a short ban rather than a revoked license, only problem was
it £3000 which I can't afford. I hold my hands up i was an
idiot, i had just been made redundant from an apprenticeship and
my life had no real direction. The offence made me realise i
needed to sort out my life and I got an apprenticeship in May
which requires me to drive to site. I completed a pre court
driving course and have a really good report on my driving
awareness etc. I really love my job and don't want to lose it,
if my license is revoked the process to get my license back
could take 4 months and I don't think work would accommodate
this. A short ban and I think I would be able to keep my job.
I have no court date yet but i am going to represent myself. I
was wondering if someone could help me write my court statement
or give me pointers on what and what not to say.
#Post#: 34081--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver 61 in a 30
DIR By: morris-man
Date: August 21, 2024, 2:58 pm
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The magistrates are required not to let you avoid having your
licence revoked by giving you a ban. For 61 in a 30 at least 6
points, and thus licence revocation, are am almost certainty
#Post#: 34082--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver 61 in a 30
DIR By: AAN
Date: August 21, 2024, 3:12 pm
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I understand that a revoked license is the most likely outcome.
The solicitor did say I may have a chance. I just want to
represent myself well in court. I have to try and ask for
leinanacy. I know what I have done was stupid and have learnt a
huge lesson.
#Post#: 34101--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver 61 in a 30
DIR By: Freecall
Date: August 22, 2024, 2:09 am
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You should be very, very careful employing a solicitor for that
sum of money. Do you know them independently? Has somebody you
know well recommended them?
I hate to say it but the fact is that there are solicitors who
make a living doing these things with very little chance of
success. They sail close to the wind but just manage to stay
within the SRA rules for regulatory purposes.
For those wealthy enough, give it a go, there is nothing to lose
but for many it is just money down the drain.
Otherwise, morris-man is correct, magistrates are required not
to let offenders avoid revocation by issuing a disqualification.
#Post#: 34104--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver 61 in a 30
DIR By: The Rookie
Date: August 22, 2024, 2:38 am
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£3000 is about 6 times what you should be paying!
I presume you found them via the internet....
#Post#: 34126--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver 61 in a 30
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: August 22, 2024, 6:38 am
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--- Quote ---
> The magistrates are required not to let you avoid having your
licence revoked by giving you a ban. For 61 in a 30 at least 6
points, and thus licence revocation, are am almost certainty.
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> Otherwise, morris-man is correct, magistrates are required not
to let offenders avoid revocation by issuing a disqualification.
--- End Quote ---
That's not quite correct.
Magistrates are not required (i.e. by law) to impose points.
However they are advised that to impose a disqualification when
it might not otherwise be imposed would normally be
inappropriate as it would circumvent the intention of
Parliament:
HTML https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/explanatory-material/magistrates-court/item/road-traffic-offences-disqualification/8-new-drivers/
"An offender liable for an endorsement which will cause the
licence to be revoked under the new drivers’ provisions may ask
the court to disqualify rather than impose points. This will
avoid the requirement to take a further test. Generally, this
would be inappropriate since it would circumvent the clear
intention of Parliament."
This is similar to the situation where a driver faces a "totting
up" ban and asks the court to impose a disqualification instead.
However, the guidance in that case is very much more assertive:
HTML https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/explanatory-material/magistrates-court/item/road-traffic-offences-disqualification/3-totting-up-disqualification/
"The court should first consider the circumstances of the
offence, and determine whether the offence should attract a
discretionary period of disqualification. But the court must
note the statutory obligation to disqualify those repeat
offenders who would, were penalty points imposed, be liable to
the mandatory “totting” disqualification and, unless the court
is of the view that the offence should be marked by a period of
discretionary disqualification in excess of the minimum totting
up disqualification period, the court should impose penalty
points rather than discretionary disqualification so that the
minimum totting up disqualification period applies."
In the case of "totting up", the guidance is quite clear: unless
a discretionary ban will be longer than the totting up ban would
be, then points should be imposed and the driver liable to a
totting up ban.
However, with the New Driver's legislation it is not so
prescriptive. It simply informs Magistrates to avoid
circumventing the will of Parliament. It would be trickier to be
as prescriptive because there is no disqualification periods
involved to make a comparison.
However, in neither case are Magistrates required to impose
points. They always have discretion if they believe it is
justified.
In this particular case, 61 in a 30mph limit is well into
disqualification territory. The guidelines for 51mph and over
suggest either a ban of up to 56 days or 6 points. When dealing
with a "new Driver" and faced with this choice, it may seem
confusing and it is a question, I am sure, causes some
Magistrates an amount of angst. Normally a ban is seen as a more
severe than points and in the case of a driver facing "totting
up" it is clear that, from the guidance, a ban of at least six
months (by way of either the discretionary or totting up
variety) would be the outcome. In most cases, since a
discretionary ban for a single offence of more than six months
is seldom appropriate, points would be the answer.
But the same cannot be said when a New Driver is involved
because the sanction for the driver (that of licence revocation)
would, perversely some might think, involve less serious
consequences if the harsher penalty was imposed. In my view,
this cannot be what Parliament intended and I believe that
courts should adopt he same principle as that advised when a
driver faces a totting up ban: i.e. that points should be
imposed so that the driver faces revocation.
This dichotomy stems from what I believe is a deficiency in the
New Drivers' Act. It should include a provision such that it
also applies to drivers who are subject to a ban for a single
offence. However, that is perhaps Flame Pit territory.
Magistrates always have discretion to allow a driver to avoid
revocation if they believe it is justified. They can impose
fewer than six points (if the offence allows it) or they can
impose a short ban. They have further guidance which says this.
Page 22 here:
HTML https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Adult-Court-Bench-Book-May-2023.pdf
"The court should consider the impact that ordering six or more
points will have on a new driver. Ordering less than six points
or a disqualification will not lead to a DVLA revocation of the
driving licence."
This seems somewhat at odds with the guidance I provided above,
but it demonstrates that Magistrates do have that discretion.
As above, I would be very wary of any solicitor who wants £3k
for what is, at most, half a day of his time. At least he has
only said you "may have a chance" rather than putting it any
stronger than that. Make the argument yourself and if it fails,
for considerably less than £3k you can secure a driving test at
reasonably short notice by using the services of one of the
"brokers" who hoover them up using bots to block book the
appointments.
#Post#: 34176--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver 61 in a 30
DIR By: AAN
Date: August 22, 2024, 11:51 am
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Thank you for your detailed response new judge. Very helpful. I
have looked into what I would need to do if my license gets
revoked. Possible 3 weeks to get provisional as can't complete
online. Theory test which could take a month to get a slot, then
a driving test which in my area is 4 months wait but could
possibly get a cancellation. There are people queuing up for my
apprenticeship and I don't think work would hold out that long.
I also have to drive 140 mile round trip to go to college every
week so managing that for such a long time is going to be hard.
Obviously not paying £3000, I think the price was because it was
a senior very experienced barrister, or so they said.
I'm going to attempt to represent myself but I have no idea what
to say.
#Post#: 34193--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver 61 in a 30
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: August 22, 2024, 1:13 pm
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You will be starting from a position of weakness, for the
reasons given above. Rather than try to avoid that, and thereby
insult the court’s intelligence, it’s often better to take the
bull by the horns and acknowledge that you’re asking the court
to depart from the guidance issued to it.
You will then have to argue your reasons as to why the court
should do as you ask. From what you have said, that seems to be
that you will lose your job if you lose your licence (note the
spelling) and have to re-take your test. However, you have to be
careful not to take it too far, because presumably if the court
just outright bans you from driving then you might lose your job
anyway.
#Post#: 34197--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver 61 in a 30
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: August 22, 2024, 1:19 pm
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Assuming that you just need to be able to get yourself to site,
£3000 would pay for a lot of taxis, or a 125cc motorcycle,
helmet and CBT (and change).
#Post#: 34227--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver 61 in a 30
DIR By: AAN
Date: August 22, 2024, 2:49 pm
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--- Quote from: andy_foster link ---
>
> Assuming that you just need to be able to get yourself to
site, £3000 would pay for a lot of taxis, or a 125cc motorcycle,
helmet and CBT (and change).
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks, that's a plan didn't think of that. I have told the
solicitor no as obviously its way too much.
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