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#Post#: 34074--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs: What is the Time Limit for a Council to Issue a
Warrant of Control After a contravention?
DIR By: Pressman
Date: August 21, 2024, 1:47 pm
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The link indicates that the Notice of Enforcement (NOE) must be
provided and outlines the methods for doing so. Yet, members
here use the term "served, which raises concerns, as "service"
in this context has a specific definition under Part 6,
referring to delivery at a designated location.
I am also still determining the status of a Warrant of Control.
The terms "re-sealed" and "re-issued" appear to be used
interchangeably, which conflicts with the Warrant of Control
presented by CDER Group Limited, which lacks a court seal.
I did a law degree in the 1990s, but I never practised; my
professor called me out because I’d obsess over every tiny
mistake, and I ended up graduating with honours in Nitpicking!
Could you please clarify whether the £204 I offered to the City
of London includes the £75?
#Post#: 34079--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs: What is the Time Limit for a Council to Issue a
Warrant of Control After a contravention?
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 21, 2024, 2:57 pm
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No it doesn't.
£204 indicates that this was processed when the debt
registration fee(with TEC) was £9(it's now £10). Therefore £204
= £130*150%+£9.
The regs don't define 'served' or derivatives so I don't know
why you are trying to focus attention on this. 'Given' by
'sending by post' or 'delivering the notice to..' don't support
any attempt to differentiate between 'served' and 'given'IMO.
I suspect your Professor would agree.
#Post#: 34080--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs: What is the Time Limit for a Council to Issue a
Warrant of Control After a contravention?
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: August 21, 2024, 2:58 pm
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--- Quote from: Pressman link ---
>
> Could you please clarify whether the £204 I offered to the
City of London includes the £75?
>
--- End Quote ---
Alas no it doesn't
£130 = Penalty Charge
£65 = Charge Certificate uplift
£9 = TEC charge registration fee, (now increased to £10).
£204 = total due
plus
£75 = bailiff compliance stage fee
#Post#: 34083--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs: What is the Time Limit for a Council to Issue a
Warrant of Control After a contravention?
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 21, 2024, 3:14 pm
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..but the latter isn't owing until a NoE has been
delivered/served/given.
#Post#: 34143--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs: What is the Time Limit for a Council to Issue a
Warrant of Control After a contravention?
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: August 22, 2024, 9:08 am
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--- Quote from: Pressman link ---
>
>
> Following a review of the circumstances, I can confidently
confirm that the City of London has acted within the timeframe
permitted by the Limitation Act in issuing the Warrant. As a
result, I have no viable defence.
>
> I just rang up the City of London to settle the debt, but
their response was so bizarre it could’ve been an episode of The
Twilight Zone. They flat-out refused the money and told me the
Warrant of Control address was given by the DVLA as if I’d tried
to pay my council tax at the local chippy!
>
> I’ve never registered a car at the Warrant address—heck, I’ve
never registered any car there. The only thing I might’ve parked
at that place is my sense of direction!
>
> I noticed that you referred to a Notice of Enforcement (NOE)
needing to be served. However, the wording in the information
you shared previously suggests that the NOE is given to the
debtor. Please clarify whether the NOE is served or simply
given.
>
> Additionally, Enceladus, you mentioned that the Warrant is
re-sealed, yet the document from CDER Group Limited appears to
lack any seal. Please clarify whether the Warrant is required to
be issued or sealed.
>
> Moving forward, I’ll wait for the City of London to take the
next step.
>
> I’m not exactly tossing and turning over the enforcement; my
house on the Warrant isn’t exactly the kind of place where a
gang of shiny-headed, muscle-bound bailiffs can just rock up to
and start clamping cars.
--- End Quote ---
City of London won't accept payment once the matter has been
passed to their bailiff. And please be aware that you cannot
avoid the bailiff charges, whatever they now are, by paying the
penalty charge directly to the Enforcement Authority. Even if
CoL accpted your payment it would count as a partial payment and
there are rules as how partial payments are divvied up between
the EA and the bailiff firm. Doesn't matter which of them
accepted the payment, partial payment won't stop enforcement.
Local Authority Warrants of Control being sealed and re-sealed
is the terminology used in CPR rule 75.7. Nothing is pyhsically
sealed as it's all done electronically, the request for a
warrant or an amendment is approved or declined by the TEC.
As to the address on the warrant and the fact that this address
was never supplied by you to the DVLA. The DVLA hold the address
of the Registered Keeper. The RK has a duty to keep this address
up-to-date. The CoL would have sent the PCN, CC & the OfR to the
RK address supplied by the DVLA. I suspect that what's happened
is that this escalated to the bailiff but we don't know when
exactly. The bailiff established that you were not living at the
RK address and tracked you to a new address. The car doesn't
have to be registered at the new address as it's you they're
trying to locate, not the car. The CoL would/should have applied
to the TEC to have the warrant re-sealed with your current
address. Seems that CoL did so. If this isn't a re-seal I don't
see how they could have discovered your new address in advance
of requesting the warrant unless you informed them of it.
Was the RK address held by the DVLA on the date of the
contravention correct or not? Or does this involve a
lease/hire/company car?
You seem to have a copy of the warrant. But how did you find out
about the PCN in the first place? Was there a bailiff visit or
did the bailiff send you a Notice of Enforcement?
#Post#: 34153--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs: What is the Time Limit for a Council to Issue a
Warrant of Control After a contravention?
DIR By: Pressman
Date: August 22, 2024, 9:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Enceladus, I extend my sincere gratitude for your meticulous
review. Your affirmation that the Warrant was issued correctly
in terms of time and limits is duly noted. However, it is
important to clarify that my house in Kensington has never been
used as the RK address.
It looks like CDER Group Limited decided to go full Sherlock
Holmes, testing out addresses like they were clues in a
mystery—just waiting to see if anyone yells, "Aha, you found
me!" But some bright spark clearly forgot to check when I
actually bought the house, so they just slapped 23 January 2024
as the issue date—because why not?
Your explanation makes perfect sense—no wonder the City of
London call centre agent nearly short-circuited when I handed
over £204. She must've thought it was Monopoly money and chucked
it back at me like I was trying to pay with chocolate coins!
I discovered the PCN when CDER Group Limited sent me a
red-lettered love note. When I phoned them, their agent grilled
me about my address, as if I were starring in a crime drama.
But when I pointed out that a Limited Company can't just crown
itself as an Enforcement Agent, she went into a full-on neurotic
meltdown, knickers in a knot and all. I figured it was best to
let her unravel and leave them to their own chaos!
If I can't pay the debt, I’ve just put it in a parking space—no
ticket required!
#Post#: 34155--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs: What is the Time Limit for a Council to Issue a
Warrant of Control After a contravention?
DIR By: Pressman
Date: August 22, 2024, 9:56 am
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Hi again, Enceladus. I have considered your point regarding the
distribution of funds paid under a Warrant of Control,
indicating that they should be split or 'divvied' between the
City of London and the Enforcement Agent. If I’ve understood
correctly, this reflects your stance.
The link provided by HC Anderson references the 2014
regulations, which clearly define the "proceeds of enforcement"
as the funds obtained from the sale of a debtor's goods.
According to these regulations, if the proceeds are insufficient
to cover both the amount owed under the Warrant of Control and
the Enforcement Agent's fees, these funds must be
proportionately distributed between the creditor and the agent.
However, I found no reference indicating that payments made
directly to the City of London constitute "proceeds of
enforcement." The term "enforcement" is clearly defined in the
regulations as involving the removal and sale of the debtor's
goods.
Please provide further clarification on the regulation that
mandates the apportionment of payments in the manner prescribed
for the proceeds from the sale of goods.
#Post#: 34168--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs: What is the Time Limit for a Council to Issue a
Warrant of Control After a contravention?
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 22, 2024, 11:09 am
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As the regs make clear, the NoE is the most important part of
the enforcement process for a Warrant of Control.
[member=38]Enceladus[/member]: City of London won't accept
payment once the matter has been passed to their bailiff.
Why?
If the bailiff has not issued a NoE then the debt is simply owed
to the council surely?
#Post#: 34174--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs: What is the Time Limit for a Council to Issue a
Warrant of Control After a contravention?
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: August 22, 2024, 11:35 am
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To reiterate. The fact that you never used the Kensington
address as the RK address is irrelevant.
It's your current address and apparently was your address, or an
address that was associated with you, even if you had not yet
moved in. Or you had temporarily moved out.
Or are you saying that you did not have any association with the
Kensington address at all on or prior to the 23rd Jan 2024? It's
difficult to understand how the bailiff and the CoL could have
predicted you would buy this particular property before you
actually did. Might it be that you bought a property, then
started to renovate so you couldn't move in? Or recovered a
property that you had rented out whilst in Singapore or some
scenario like that.
If CDER can find any vehicle registered to you in a public place
then they'll likely clamp it and threaten to tow it away. Not
just the vehicle involved in the original contravention.
@HCA
The CoL would have acceped £204 if the warrant had net yet been
issued/sealed, in response to the OfR. Once the warrant was
issued the matter was passed to CDER to collect. CDER would have
sent a Notice of Enforcement for £204 plus their £75 fee. The
CoL would then refer all attempts to pay the penalty to the
Bailiff firm. But even if the CoL accepted the £204 payment it
would only be a partial payment and would be divvied up between
CDER and the CoL. There are rules about who gets what out of the
smaller cake and the matter is not closed out. The payment
shortfall can still be enforced
Apparently the OP didn't get get the notice of enforcement as it
would have been sent to some address other than where the OP now
resides.
We haven't seen the "love letter" from CDER, please post that
up.
And how much are the bailiffs actually looking for? Is it £279
or £514? I assume the "love letter" tells us.
#Post#: 34187--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs: What is the Time Limit for a Council to Issue a
Warrant of Control After a contravention?
DIR By: Pressman
Date: August 22, 2024, 12:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Enceladus,
Thank you for your response. My enquiry concerning the time
limits for issuing a Warrant of Control relative to the
contravention date has been thoroughly addressed. Therefore, any
further discussion on this matter is purely academic.
I can confirm that I bought the house after 23 January 2024 and
have never resided there. The property was purchased as a
wedding gift for my son.
It is now clear that the relationship between the City of London
and CDER Group Limited is commercial and explains the City of
London's rejection of the £204.
Upon closer examination of the divvy-up comment above, it
becomes clear that this strategy relies on a misinterpretation
of Regulation 13, which specifically pertains to the proceeds
from the sale of goods when these proceeds fall short of
covering both the judgment sum and the enforcement fees.
There’s no Notice of Enforcement, and the letter, with its
over-the-top threats, feels like a bad phishing scam straight
out of a B-movie. It’s like they’re just angling for someone to
call the number on it, probably aiming to win the 'Most
Gullible' award—congratulations, I’m the proud recipient!
I'm not losing sleep over the fly-by-nights hunting for the
car—it’s off the table, like a dish at a dinner party that’s
already been cleared away.
I highly doubt CDER Group Limited had a VIP pass to the DVLA’s
national vehicle database. After all, that database doesn’t
spill the beans on who owns what car.
And I’m pretty sure Parliament isn’t about to let private
companies play detective with people’s names to see what rides
they’ve got registered.
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