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#Post#: 37085--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: September 16, 2024, 10:28 am
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Couple of comments:
--- Quote ---
> Introduction - my reason to visit the gym
--- End Quote ---
The reason for your visit is irrelevant as to whether or not a
contract was formed leading to a parking charge becoming
payable. Leave this out.
--- Quote ---
> Above is a google map of direction from my house to the gym
--- End Quote ---
It's not entirely clear why you have included this. It doesn't
really support your point around signage in its current form.
Page 6: You have included a WhatsApp screenshot, but this is too
small to be of much use for anything. Your wider photos of the
signage at the site may be useful, but the WhatsApp screenshot
isn't particularly.
--- Quote ---
> 3. The reason for my visit: The gym in question ( Pure Gym, in
Anlaby Hull) uses automated entries and assistance, as there is
no one there to advise you No one at pure gym picks there
phones, replies to emails or replies to their facebook and
social media accounts.
--- End Quote ---
None of this is relevant, I'd leave this out.
Page 8:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/T3R2XsI.png
You say this is a photo of the main entrance, but it looks like
it is actually a photo of the way out, taken from inside the car
park:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/zRFAgiCDNHPwCe2aA
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/zRFAgiCDNHPwCe2aA.
This is the entrance:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/BBdcmXhz1ug1iuma7
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/BBdcmXhz1ug1iuma7.
#Post#: 37091--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: bebu
Date: September 16, 2024, 10:42 am
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Points noted. Will update it shortly
That last photo is the entrance, and when you turn right, you
are then in the south entrance of the centre. Which then turns
right at the end to the gym
#Post#: 37092--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: b789
Date: September 16, 2024, 10:54 am
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As I already mentioned, the required entrance signage is in
place at the location. However, if parking at the side of the
gym, there is no visible signage except the disabled bay notice
(at least in March 2022):
HTML https://i.imgur.com/WiwTOrR.jpeg
You also need to remember that POPA will not consider anything
that isn't a failure to follow the law or the BPA CoP. So
anything about anything that is not to do with the operator and
whether the PCN was issued correctly, is a waste of your time
and effort. Did the operator follow all their legal and CoP
requirements correctly. If they did, then the assessor issuing
to reject your appeal.
#Post#: 37115--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: bebu
Date: September 16, 2024, 3:13 pm
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--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> As I already mentioned, the required entrance signage is in
place at the location. However, if parking at the side of the
gym, there is no visible signage except the disabled bay notice
(at least in March 2022):
>
>
HTML https://i.imgur.com/WiwTOrR.jpeg
>
> You also need to remember that POPA will not consider anything
that isn't a failure to follow the law or the BPA CoP. So
anything about anything that is not to do with the operator and
whether the PCN was issued correctly, is a waste of your time
and effort. Did the operator follow all their legal and CoP
requirements correctly. If they did, then the assessor issuing
to reject your appeal.
>
--- End Quote ---
thank you for your time, help and kind comments. Its very much
appreciated
I had parked at the side of the gym, next to the two blue cars,
and from that spot, there no way I could have seen that sign,
thats why I posted that whatsapp attachment, as I sent it to my
friend, saying I was waiting at that spot for him
thank you very much, will submit the first one now and second
tomorrow
#Post#: 39644--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: bebu
Date: October 7, 2024, 4:55 am
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Hello
I got an email from my POPLA appeal, in which smartsystems are
challenging my appeal.
However I think they are mixing up my appeal with another
person, as my initial flawed appeal, which they rejected was
based on the fact that I was in the gym for the first time. But
in their response, they claim, I went to do my weekly shopping
and kept my kid in the car
See it here
Although I want to reply asap, I dont want to make mistakes as
last time and say something sensible, but outside the legal
points. So please advise,
many thanks
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1opcb9ourplg52u91xgws/popla.png?rlkey=d5ruu4dcwasgbe3qr6vav4zys&dl=0
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zb9ovpo0ntoy13go1kvym/Case-Summary-8512324712.pdf?rlkey=y2q2s0cgc48xfap3r13hkk5ik&dl=0
#Post#: 39646--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: b789
Date: October 7, 2024, 5:05 am
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Lovely... I will come back with a suitable retort you can submit
to POPLA. Bear with me, this is going to be fun.
Does their "Case Summary - 8512324712" number match your POPLA
claim number? Also, does the VRM match your vehicles VRM?
#Post#: 39648--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: October 7, 2024, 5:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
At this point I think Trading Standards need to tell Smart
Parking to change their company name, as it is clearly
misleading.
@bebu - did you make the point about landowner authority? If so,
can you show us what they have provided by way of a contract?
Smart used to have serious issues with this, so I'd be
interested to see what they've provided.
#Post#: 39650--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: bebu
Date: October 7, 2024, 5:19 am
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Yes, its both my vehicle and my argument. But their response is
just daft. I went to the gym to work out. YOu can see in my
failed summary response, which I even put screenshots of my gym
membership ( and the full argyment is below).
1. So where they got the response, that I went shopping and left
my 6 months old son is daft
2. I only have a daughter, who lives 2 hours 10 mins, away from
me in another city and she is 16
3. I am a male and dont breastfeed as stated by them
Reading the whole things just gives me a headache and at the
same time, makes me laugh.
#Post#: 39651--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: b789
Date: October 7, 2024, 5:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Where are the photos you took when you went back to the site?
The links to them do not work anymore. However, the GCV view
from March 2022 show that any signs they claim were there in
2017, were not actually there anymore.
Also, the signs they have shown show that they were "created" in
November 2017 but "modified" in May 2017. If that is not
evidence of tampering, I don't know what else is.
#Post#: 39652--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: bebu
Date: October 7, 2024, 5:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DWMB2 link ---
>
> At this point I think Trading Standards need to tell Smart
Parking to change their company name, as it is clearly
misleading.
>
> [member=687]bebu[/member] - did you make the point about
landowner authority? If so, can you show us what they have
provided by way of a contract? Smart used to have serious issues
with this, so I'd be interested to see what they've provided.
>
--- End Quote ---
lol, they should call themselves DAFT PARKING STANDARDS ;D :)
:D
Yes, I did mention the landowner argument, I think they just
omitted everything and have their arguments mixed up
Here was my argument
Re: Parking ticket TC82751969 ( POPLA Verification Code:
8512324712)
I was issued with a parking ticket for parking at the Anlaby
shopping centre for my visit on the 15th July 2024. I have been
charged £100. I believe that this ticket was issued unfairly. I
am NOT liable for the amount payable. Reasons and evidence
below:
1. No legal evidence of land authority
2. There was insufficient signage and not clearly visible
3. Enroute the centre, where I parked at the time, there is a
major road, which branches off to the right, notably where I
parked there is no clearly visible sign
4. From the spot I parked and my short walk into the gym, (on
that day the PCN was issued) there is no clearly visible sign.
5. I drove back to the shopping centre today and at the entrance
is a disabled spot with a sign on it, which is not clear, as the
sign is placed on a disable spot and not at the entrance of the
gym
6. Gross unfairness and affecting my mental health
Even if smart parking, in all fairness is setting up 3 hours
parking restrictions where a gym exists. It would be in the
public’s interest to ensure the gym “IN QUESTION” notifies its
members, in the app, on the gym floor and upon sign up. If it is
done in FAIRNESS. After all a gym is not just about hours of
working out, it has showers, hour long classes, changing, banter
(mental health) etc
Kind regards
INTRODUCTION – my reason to visit the gym
I am a member of both Nuffield Fitness gym and JD Gyms in Hull.
Of which I have been using Nuffield for almost 14 years now. I
am not a member of Pure Gym, but was my first visit on the
fateful day
An old friend, told me about Pure Gym in Anlaby ( which I had
never been to, neither do I shop in that area) and sent me a
free pass, asking to meet up before 5pm.
I had sent him a photo that I was infront of the gym as I
arrived early, but he unfortunately arrived late. (Kindly see
whatsapp evidence, and there was no parking advisory sign, where
I parked as I sent him a photo)
I repeat: There was no sign or warning from both smart parking,
neither any put up by Pure gym, (outside their premises, inside
or in their app) and they do not have any staff manning the
entrance.
POINT OF APPEAL
1. No evidence of landholder authority
The operator is also put to strict proof, by means of
contemporaneous and unredacted evidence, of a chain of authority
flowing from the landholder of the "relevant land" to the
operator. It is not accepted that the operator has adhered to
the landholder's definitions, exemptions, grace period, hours of
operation, etc. and any instructions to cancel charges due to
complaints. There is no evidence that the freeholder authorises
this operator to issue parking charges or what the land
enforcement boundary and start/expiry dates are, nor whether
this operator has standing to enforce such charges in their own
name rather than a bare licence to act as an agent ‘on behalf
of’ the landowner.
The operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the
BPA Code of Practice. As this operator does not have proprietary
interest in the “relevant land” then I require that they produce
an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The
contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out
details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or
'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of
veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define
what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances
where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to
cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an
agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue
Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to
make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers
and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal
action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for
a landowner only). Witness statements are not sound evidence of
the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even
identifying the case in hand or even the site rules.
A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but
in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently
evidence the definition of the services provided by each party
to the agreement. Nor would it define vital information such as
charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which
I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in
the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and
bays where enforcement applies/does
not apply.
Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the
landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and, of
course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge
(which cannot be assumed to be the sum on a sign because
template private parking terms and sums have been known not to
match the actual landowner agreement). Paragraph 7 of the BPA
Code of Practice defines the mandatory requirements and I put
this operator to strict proof of full compliance:
7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any
outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the
written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent)
prior to legal action being taken.
7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:
(a) the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that
the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined
(b) any conditions or restrictions on parking control and
enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of
operation
(c) any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that
may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement
(d) who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining
signs
(e) the definition of the services provided by each party to the
agreement
No evidence of landholder authority
The operator is also put to strict proof, by means of
contemporaneous and unredacted evidence, of a chain of authority
flowing from the landholder of the "relevant land" to the
operator. It is not accepted that the operator has adhered to
the landholder's definitions, exemptions, grace period, hours of
operation, etc. and any instructions to cancel charges due to
complaints. There is no evidence that the freeholder authorises
this operator to issue parking charges or what the land
enforcement boundary and start/expiry dates are, nor whether
this operator has standing to enforce such charges in their own
name rather than a bare licence to act as an agent ‘on behalf
of’ the landowner.
The operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the
BPA Code of Practice. As this operator does not have proprietary
interest in the “relevant land” then I require that they produce
an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The
contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out
details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or
'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of
veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define
what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances
where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to
cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an
agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue
Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to
make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers
and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal
action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for
a landowner only). Witness statements are not sound evidence of
the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even
identifying the case in hand or even the site rules.
A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but
in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently
evidence the definition of the services provided by each party
to the agreement. Nor would it define vital information such as
charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which
I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in
the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and
bays where enforcement applies/does
not apply.
Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the
landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and, of
course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge
(which cannot be assumed to be the sum on a sign because
template private parking terms and sums have been known not to
match the actual landowner agreement). Paragraph 7 of the BPA
Code of Practice defines the mandatory requirements and I put
this operator to strict proof of full compliance:
7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any
outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the
written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent)
prior to legal action being taken.
7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:
(a) the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that
the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined
(b) any conditions or restrictions on parking control and
enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of
operation
(c) any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that
may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement
(d) who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining
signs
(e) the definition of the services provided by each party to the
agreement
Above is a google map of direction from my house to the gym.
There is no sign as you approach the entrance and insufficient
enroute the gym.
2. There was insufficient signage. There was no sign at the
entrance of the car park or major areas in the car park, neither
is there any at the entrance of the gym
I have attached a whatsapp screenshot, when I arrived the gym
and was waiting for my friend, who invited me for a 5 day
workout session.
Notably, I had parked infront of the gym and there was no sign
at the entrance. I have also attached more photos of the area
attesting to this fact. At the end of this document
3. The reason for my visit: The gym in question ( Pure Gym, in
Anlaby Hull) uses automated entries and assistance, as there is
no one there to advise you
No one at pure gym picks there phones, replies to emails or
replies to their facebook and social media accounts.
4. From the spot I parked and my short walk into the gym, (on
that day the PCN was issued) there is no clearly visible sign.
This is a statement of fact and honesty
6. Gross unfairness and affecting my mental health
Even though this is not quoted in the “requirements of the BPA
CoP” I think its important that we speak out against private
companies setting traps for unsuspecting individuals.
I honestly never saw any of the notices/signs and innocently
went to the gym, it would have been fair, if they insisted also,
that the gym notify their members, rather than set traps for
them
See more evidence attached below
Main entrance – No obvious signed
Main Entrance – No Obvious signs
Where I parked, No signs. Kindly note this is the main and only
entrance into the gym
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