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#Post#: 37000--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: bebu
Date: September 16, 2024, 5:54 am
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hello
very sorry this is late, I have had some challenges. I have
removed personal details and done a draft challenge which I want
to submit today, kindly find attached here
I cant upload to this forum as I am told the upload folder is
full and I should contact the administrator, however I have
uploaded it here to my dropbox account
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4i047o9gvvlhf2420juae/PCN-Appeal-pure-gym-analby-2.pdf?rlkey=5dy0lluvruov91sn27f9ump0n&st=tp8d5ylz&dl=0
many thanks
#Post#: 37002--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: b789
Date: September 16, 2024, 6:03 am
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I haven't gone through it fully but simply looking at your
appeal points, you have about zero chance of POPLA accepting the
appeal on mitigation.
Waffling on about what the Gym has or has not done or their
staffing levels is of no consequence and will not be considered.
POPLA is only interested in whether the PCN was issued correctly
on points of law or the BPA CoP.
So, if the driver is still unidentified, was the PCN POFA
compliant? If not, the burden of proof is on the operator to
prove that the Keeper was the driver.
Do the signs conform to the requirements of the BPA CoP and do
they adequately bring to the attention of the driver the charge
for breaching the terms?
Were the signs able to form a contract with the driver?
Is there a valid contract flowing from the landowner to the
operator?
And so on. What the Gym did or did not do is irrelevant.
#Post#: 37014--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: bebu
Date: September 16, 2024, 6:29 am
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--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> I haven't gone through it fully but simply looking at your
appeal points, you have about zero chance of POPLA accepting the
appeal on mitigation.
>
> Waffling on about what the Gym has or has not done or their
staffing levels is of no consequence and will not be considered.
POPLA is only interested in whether the PCN was issued correctly
on points of law or the BPA CoP.
>
> So, if the driver is still unidentified, was the PCN POFA
compliant? If not, the burden of proof is on the operator to
prove that the Keeper was the driver.
>
> Do the signs conform to the requirements of the BPA CoP and do
they adequately bring to the attention of the driver the charge
for breaching the terms?
>
> Were the signs able to form a contract with the driver?
>
> Is there a valid contract flowing from the landowner to the
operator?
>
> And so on. What the Gym did or did not do is irrelevant.
>
--- End Quote ---
I see, I have deleted all the other points, except for no 1.
Which you earlier gave me. Moving forward, do you have templates
for the other points ?
Do I leave the photos about the signs not being so obvious ?
many thanks
#Post#: 37015--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: September 16, 2024, 6:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Moving forward, do you have templates for the other points ?
--- End Quote ---
The other points were questions, which you need to answer. Once
you've done so we might then be able to advise.
#Post#: 37019--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: bebu
Date: September 16, 2024, 6:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
POPLA is only interested in whether the PCN was issued correctly
on points of law or the BPA CoP.
So, if the driver is still unidentified, was the PCN POFA
compliant? If not, the burden of proof is on the operator to
prove that the Keeper was the driver.
They havnet identified me as of yet, just a letter to which I
have acknowledge in my 1st faulty appeal (In which I did say, I
was visiting the gym), which has been rejected.
So I have kind of roped myself in
Do the signs conform to the requirements of the BPA CoP and do
they adequately bring to the attention of the driver the charge
for breaching the terms?
I had attached a number of photos to my appeal, in which there
are no signs, as you approach the shopping center and no clear
signs as you drive in. However there are 2 signs as you turn
right ( which I would argue is very easy to miss) and a sign by
the side of the gym, which if you look in the photos I attached,
faces another side and would not be something I would have seen.
So I would say no
Also, I did visit the gym 6 days in a row and never noticed any
of the signs
If you look at the google road layout, I attached, its a
straightforward drive to the gym, virtually an L shaped drive,
as the gym ( in question, I visited) is at the corner or the end
of the road
Were the signs able to form a contract with the driver?
I would again say no, see the photos I attached. Even leaving
the gym, it would be hard to see them
Is there a valid contract flowing from the landowner to the
operator?
I dont know, but I dont think so, as its a shopping center and I
dont believe SP owns that land
And so on. What the Gym did or did not do is irrelevant.
#Post#: 37033--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: b789
Date: September 16, 2024, 7:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bebu link ---
>
> They havnet identified me as of yet, just a letter to which I
have acknowledge in my 1st faulty appeal (In which I did say, I
was visiting the gym), which has been rejected.
>
--- End Quote ---
"They" cannot identify the driver unless YOU, the Keeper did so,
inadvertently or otherwise. Smart Parking are one of the easiest
operators to beat, as long as the driver is not identified by
the Keeper. Smart do not issue PoFA compliant PCNs.
So, did you or did you not reveal the identity of the driver
when you appealed? Saying things like "I parked..." instead of
"The driver parked..." is an example of how to blow the drivers
identity inadvertently. Also, when appealing, there is an option
to select whether you are appealing as the "driver" or the
"keeper" or "other". Which option did you select?
If you have revealed yourself to be the driver, then you cannot
rely on their failure to comply with PoFA and you are liable as
the driver.
However, looking at GSV images from 2022, the signage appears to
be woefully inadequate, or at least it was back then. At the
parking are to the side of the gym there is no signage
whatsoever. The only visible sign is the in front of the
disabled bays.
All the other signs in the car park are small and the wording
appears to illegible unless you are standing six inches from the
sign. Can you get a close up of the sign so that we can evaluate
the wording and whether it is able to form a contract?
I see there is an entrance sign as you drive into the retail
park. Have you tried contacting the managing agent for the
landowner to ask that they bet the PCN cancelled? You can
probably find out who that is by looking at that big advertising
plinth by the entrance. Normally, near the bottom, there is
information on who either owns or manages the land on there.
If you are interested, have a look at the BPA CoP for the
requirements in their signs.
HTML https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/NEW%20Redesigned%20Documents/Version91.2.2024Highlight.pdf
The landowner point should be used but not as the primary point,
although, then again, Smart very often do not have valid
contracts where they operate.
#Post#: 37036--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: bebu
Date: September 16, 2024, 7:26 am
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I believe I have identified myself and blown my cover. I will
get back to you with the other questions shortly. As I would
take a photo and ask about the other questions
Many thanks
#Post#: 37038--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: September 16, 2024, 7:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> The landowner point should be used but not as the primary
point, although, then again, Smart very often do not have valid
contracts where they operate.
>
--- End Quote ---
Even if not as the primary point, definitely include this. As
b789 notes, there have historically been issues with their
contracts, to the point that Smart often used to withdraw at
POPLA where this point was raised.
#Post#: 37074--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: bebu
Date: September 16, 2024, 9:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
>
> "They" cannot identify the driver unless YOU, the Keeper did
so, inadvertently or otherwise. Smart Parking are one of the
easiest operators to beat, as long as the driver is not
identified by the Keeper. Smart do not issue PoFA compliant
PCNs.
>
> So, did you or did you not reveal the identity of the driver
when you appealed? Saying things like "I parked..." instead of
"The driver parked..." is an example of how to blow the drivers
identity inadvertently. Also, when appealing, there is an option
to select whether you are appealing as the "driver" or the
"keeper" or "other". Which option did you select?
>
> If you have revealed yourself to be the driver, then you
cannot rely on their failure to comply with PoFA and you are
liable as the driver.
>
> However, looking at GSV images from 2022, the signage appears
to be woefully inadequate, or at least it was back then. At the
parking are to the side of the gym there is no signage
whatsoever. The only visible sign is the in front of the
disabled bays.
>
> All the other signs in the car park are small and the wording
appears to illegible unless you are standing six inches from the
sign. Can you get a close up of the sign so that we can evaluate
the wording and whether it is able to form a contract?
>
> I see there is an entrance sign as you drive into the retail
park. Have you tried contacting the managing agent for the
landowner to ask that they bet the PCN cancelled? You can
probably find out who that is by looking at that big advertising
plinth by the entrance. Normally, near the bottom, there is
information on who either owns or manages the land on there.
>
> If you are interested, have a look at the BPA CoP for the
requirements in their signs.
>
>
HTML https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/NEW%20Redesigned%20Documents/Version91.2.2024Highlight.pdf
>
> The landowner point should be used but not as the primary
point, although, then again, Smart very often do not have valid
contracts where they operate.
>
--- End Quote ---
AS I said, I cant remember what I said in my 1st appeal, as in
my naivity, I thought being a gym member would be
straightforward, but I like to believe I owned it was me.
Moving forward
I just drove down the centre and realized, driving in. There are
1. A notice when you come in, on the right
2. A notice on the left and right, before you turn into the gym
3. But where I parked, I there are no visible direct notice, as
you enter the gym
AS I said earlier, I never noticed anything the 5 days I visited
the gym, as the gym is at the end of the shopping centre
SEe attached files here
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/quj76oasaoxyu3ihte8eq/20240916_144849-0.jpg?rlkey=w6otulcp7unile3x963jiveo0&st=v1ldzggs&dl=0
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/e768t078klr2i9sj5xocz/20240916_144929.jpg?rlkey=99kmdfslg1tgnzje0hnzavp4j&st=5htldaef&dl=0
This last photo is where I parked, and the sign, I highlighted
with the arrow, has a disabled spot with a PCN warning
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/h5f2nbtjozobss4wrdmit/disabled-sign.jpg?rlkey=hmtv9vsonih4sai5ye8e13rak&st=jddx1jf1&dl=0
Finally about the SHOPPING CENTRE ownership is a charity called
Anlaby Retail Park is owned by The Albert Gubay Charitable
Foundation and managed by Workman LLP
#Post#: 37082--------------------------------------------------
Re: 3 hours Parking fine violation while at anlalby gym Hull
DIR By: bebu
Date: September 16, 2024, 9:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I have updated this document - MY APPEAL
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4i047o9gvvlhf2420juae/PCN-Appeal-pure-gym-analby-2.pdf?rlkey=5dy0lluvruov91sn27f9ump0n&st=tp8d5ylz&dl=0
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