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#Post#: 33825--------------------------------------------------
SALTER HILL - LAMBETH Help PCN Tribunal
DIR By: niknakpop
Date: August 19, 2024, 9:31 am
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i recently was rejected for not allowing oncoming traffic
priority at salter hill in lambeth (please view below, My car is
the Kia grrey exceed FN20 KYG):
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/201284588@N06/shares/J1QA28kH8C
today is last day i can pay 65 reduced or it goes up. is it
worth taking to tribunal or should i just pay?
below is what i wrote in my appeal but was rejected:
I hope this email finds you well.
I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice
(PCN) issued to my vehicle. I believe the contravention did not
occur as described, and I would like to provide the following
information for your review.
At the time of the alleged contravention, my vehicle had passed
the 'give way' sign. The provided photographs show that the
other vehicle in question had not yet reached Salter's Hill, nor
was it near the junction. My vehicle did not obstruct or cause
the other vehicle to alter its speed or direction. Hence, it is
not conclusive that the other vehicle can be classified as
'oncoming.'
No vehicle had entered Salter's Hill when my vehicle was at the
'give way' sign. According to traffic regulations, there is no
requirement to slow down or stop at a 'give way' sign in
anticipation of a vehicle that is not visible or oncoming.
Based on these points, I respectfully request a review and
reconsideration of the PCN issued. I believe that a fair
assessment will conclude that no contravention occurred.
Thank you for your attention to this matter. I look forward to
your response.
#Post#: 33829--------------------------------------------------
Re: SALTER HILL - LAMBETH Help PCN Tribunal
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: August 19, 2024, 9:57 am
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Seems you were through the give way before the oncoming car had
even got to the speed bump.
Let's see the rejection.
HTML https://imgur.com/VCaNzFS
HTML https://i.imgur.com/DjRLqc8.gif
#Post#: 33832--------------------------------------------------
Re: SALTER HILL - LAMBETH Help PCN Tribunal
DIR By: niknakpop
Date: August 19, 2024, 10:09 am
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Hi Please see response from lambeth, Thanks
Thank you for writing to us.
We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided
not to cancel your PCN.
We sent you a PC because our CCTV camera evidence shows your
vehicle failing to give way to oncoming vehicles. The sign has a
small red arrow and a large black one. Below are the words 'Give
way to oncoming vehicles.
There are adequate signs advising all drivers that priority must
be given to vehicles coming from the opposite direction on
Salters Hill.
The road marking to diagram 1003A (transverse line) and the GiVE
WAY sign impose a mandatory requirement on drivers to stop at
the transverse line, giving priority to oncoming vehicles
travelling from the opposite direction. The Give WAY marking
(diagram 1003) requires that "no vehicle may proceed past the
transverse line at a time likely to endanger the driver of, or
any passenger in, a vehicle that has priority (oncoming) to
cause the driver of such a vehicle to change its speed or course
to avoid an accident. Whilst we have noted your comments, I
should advise that your vehicle was required to stop at the Give
Way marking as priority is given to oncoming vehicles proceeding
from the opposite direction. After carefully reviewing the CCTV
evidence, it shows that the vehicle coming from the opposite
direction was now at the point of priority. Therefore, you
should have acknowledged this and stopped at the
transverse lines
Please note that all our traffic signs are made of illuminated
material. This means that the dimmest of light from any vehicle
at night will reflect on the sign showing its details.
The signs at the location conform to the Traffic Signs
Regulations and General Directions 2016 and The Traffic Signs
Manual Chapter 3.
1 appreciate you did not intend on committing the contravention
and understand the circumstance described within your
representation. Please be advised that it remains the
driver's/keeper responsibility to ensure that the vehicle was
proceeding in accordance with the restriction in place.
The enclosed photos help to show why your PC was issued.
He
You can also view photographic evidence of your case online at
HTML https://beta.lambeth
.
gov.uk/parking/parking-fines-and-penalty-charge-notices-pcs/penalty-charge-notices-pens/pay-or-view-parking-fine-penalty-charge-notice-pen
#Post#: 33837--------------------------------------------------
Re: SALTER HILL - LAMBETH Help PCN Tribunal
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: August 19, 2024, 10:28 am
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--- Quote ---
> I should advise that your vehicle was required to stop at the
Give Way marking
--- End Quote ---
???? What? Then he should erect a stop sign.
I concur with Stamf: the vehicle was not even in sight as you
crossed the 'Give Way' line.
You need also to post up all sides of the PCN, only redacting yr
name and address.
Personally I would press on, but it is your call -
see what others advise.
#Post#: 33839--------------------------------------------------
Re: SALTER HILL - LAMBETH Help PCN Tribunal
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 19, 2024, 11:11 am
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With respect, can we please stop calling this a 'Give Way' sign,
it isn't.(Give Way restrictions only exist at road junctions).
It is a Priority Sign which conveys the meaning:
Diagram 615
Priority must be given to vehicles from the
opposite direction
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/3/made
HTML https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf<br
/>
(S.4.8).
.. the extent of which must either be stated(in a plate) or
implicit because it's blindingly obvious and which must be
appropriately marked and signed at both ends.
The effect of the sign may be bolstered (to use the words of the
TSM) by the use of an associated plate saying 'Give way
to.....', but this does not create a Give Way restriction, it
remains a Priority must be given' restriction.
And unless the limits are obvious e.g. arch of a bridge etc,
then it should also include a plate giving the extent of the
restricted area.(see TSM)
It doesn't = it's the arch.
Which coincidentally is where the line and sign in the opposite
direction are located.
IMO.
#Post#: 33843--------------------------------------------------
Re: SALTER HILL - LAMBETH Help PCN Tribunal
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: August 19, 2024, 11:53 am
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The road markings are clearly give way and as john points out do
not create a requirement to stop
#Post#: 33845--------------------------------------------------
Re: SALTER HILL - LAMBETH Help PCN Tribunal
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: August 19, 2024, 12:20 pm
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It's a give way line as we know it...
Where the guidance isn't obeyed is that the upright sign should
be about 1.5m ahead of the line instead of level as is, but I
can't see this makes much difference.
The priority zone is clearly the narrow part under the bridge.
#Post#: 33847--------------------------------------------------
Re: SALTER HILL - LAMBETH Help PCN Tribunal
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 19, 2024, 12:48 pm
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Agreed, it's a Give Way line which in conjunction with the Give
Priority to sign creates the restriction..Give Priority to.
The line does not alter the meaning and extent of the sign, it's
not Give Priority Plus.
A 'Give Way line' may be added, but this does not create a Give
Way restriction, it remains 'Give Priority' because this is the
meaning of the sign which cannot be changed by adding a line.
And the extent is the arch of the bridge. But if one wants to be
generous it's the sign coming the other way.
It is not where the council officer on the day decides.
In any event, the oncoming car was not in the priority area and
so IMO a contravention did not occur.
OP, have you registered your appeal yet?
#Post#: 33866--------------------------------------------------
Re: SALTER HILL - LAMBETH Help PCN Tribunal
DIR By: niknakpop
Date: August 19, 2024, 5:40 pm
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I have decided to take it to a tribunal review, I'll post an
update on the outcome when it's concluded.
#Post#: 33883--------------------------------------------------
Re: SALTER HILL - LAMBETH Help PCN Tribunal
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 20, 2024, 5:03 am
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I suggest you post your argument here first! I've got a feeling
that we'll be able to help you craft a more concise and relevant
argument, with legal references, than you on your own!
At present all you need to do is to register the appeal, state
you rely on your reps and would submit further representations
if necessary following receipt and review of the council's
evidence.
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