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#Post#: 2243--------------------------------------------------
PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period.,
Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
DIR By: Charsiu
Date: July 31, 2023, 7:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi All!
This is a transitionary post (not sure whether to repost the
entire first post), originally posted on Pepipoo:
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=150122&st=0
--- Quote ---
> Received a PCN through the post for driving in part of a bus
lane.
>
> I managed to find the exact location of the footage:
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/B1Ryz89uHZTfgEEQ8
>
> On this particular road the Bus Lane stretches a very lengthy
part of the road, and having followed Google Maps I'm not
surprised I missed the last 20 meter of it. Could anyone provide
insight whether the markings/signage of the Bus Lane is
sufficient? The footage/photos shows my vehicle at the specific
point in the google maps link above, which does not show a Bus
Lane, appreciate I maybe clutching a straws at best.
--- End Quote ---
PCN and Challege Rejectiion details linked here:
HTML https://1drv.ms/f/s!As_e_pwBk-z-yhbHlR11YEjPK2H7?e=ohXszm
I appealed as guided by cp8759 and I received the (expected)
rejection letter today (letter dated 21st July), so that leaves
me 3 days of the "discounted" price remaining.
Before the challenge kindly provided by cp8759, I was dwelling
this point relating to pedestrian zig-zags:
--- Quote ---
> Bus priority: The way ahead - DOT
>
HTML https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...lve1073?page=28
HTML https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20100304131015/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/buses/bpf/busprioritythewayahead12/busprioritythewayaheadhtmlve1073?page=28
>
> Not all authorities seem to be aware that bus lane markings
are not permitted within the controlled area of a pedestrian
crossing. A bus lane must be terminated at the start of the
ziz-zags and may pick up again at the end of the zig-zags on the
far side of the crossing. If the road surface is coloured for
the bus lane, this may be continued through the controlled area
(marked with zig-zags). If a coloured surface has been used for
a bus lane, this may be continued through the controlled area
(although not through the crossing itself).
--- End Quote ---
Trying to gauge the viable defences I have should it get to a
Formal Representation/London Tribunal stages.
Many Thanks All.
#Post#: 2292--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period.,
Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 31, 2023, 6:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Video:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1eCDheEZc4
For reference, here's the representation I drafted:
[indent]
Dear London Borough of Havering,
I challenge liability for PCN HG60468721 on the basis that the
council has materially departed from the requirements of the
London Local Authorities Act 1996. Firstly the PCN states that
an Enforcement Notice may be issued if there have been no
representations received and no payment made before the period
of 28 days starting with the date of service of the PCN, this is
wrong for two reasons as follows:
The first point is that the statutory 28 day period commences
with the date of the notice, not the date of service. The second
point is that an Enforcement Notice may be served if payment is
not received, there is no statutory right to make
representations against a bus lane penalty charge notice and
while one might make representations, that is irrelevant for the
purpose of service of an Enforcement Notice: the authority may
serve an Enforcement Notice at any time after the expiry of the
statutory 28 day period, in particular the authority may serve
an Enforcement Notice even if informal representations against a
PCN have been made and are outstanding.
What the 1996 Act actually says is that a penalty charge notice
must state that if the penalty charge is not paid before the end
of the 28 day period, an enforcement notice may be served by the
council. While the wording of the regulations does not need to
be quoted verbatim, the substance of the provision must be
communicated and the PCN is defective in this regard.
Further to this, the statutory grounds of appeal are misstated.
In particular the following statutory grounds of appeal do not
exist under the 1996 Act, but are quoted on the PCN:[indent]
1) The vehicle had been permitted to remain at rest in the place
in question by a person who was in control of the vehicle
without the consent of the owner. This might well appear
relevant to a bus lane contravention where, for example, a
camera captures a car parked in a bus lane. This might happen
for instance where someone drives a car into a bus lane outside
of its hours of operation, parks the car and then the bus lane
comes into operation later in the day. However this statutory
ground of appeal does not exist.
2) The hire company ground which exists under the Traffic
Management Act 2004 and the London Local Authorities and
Transport for London Act 2003 is quoted on the PCN, but this
ground does not exist under the London Local Authorities Act
1996.
3) The penalty exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of
the case: again this ground exists under the Traffic Management
Act 2004 and the London Local Authorities and Transport for
London Act 2003, but it does not exist under the London Local
Authorities Act 1996.[/indent]
In this instance the PCN departs so fundamentally from the
requirements of the 1996 Act that the conditions required under
the Act for liability to be imposed do not arise, it follows
that the penalty charge must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
This is the informal rejection:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/OwY8gmA.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/obBCz2J.png
Looks like drivel, there's no consideration of the points made
and they've even managed to quote the wrong Act of Parliament.
For now just wait for the enforcement notice, in the meantime
I'll try and confirm the make and model of the CCTV camera.
It would be helpful if you could confirm the exact route you
took, and also if you could pop back and get some update photos
of the signage.
#Post#: 2303--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period.,
Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 1, 2023, 4:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Mr Beasley is legisationally-challenged. Just put in the same
again. The interesting point is that the PCN cites the 2003 Law,
so he considers the reps. according to the same! At least he is
consistent there! They simply cannot and will not accept any
criticism of their PCNs.
#Post#: 2351--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period.,
Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
DIR By: Charsiu
Date: August 1, 2023, 3:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks cp8759, I went back earlier on and did a full walk. Think
I may have gone overboard with the photos!
Route
[img width=1100
height=486]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mo3pnXJdoKpibAuxf9kkgHQAOE1YfUorT7Znruluq3ssEJhZ1zF3RMjS23mgAnZImDmt6BLhLcoVasZLY6z8QBWXsBil3mLnLcAuDQkm4mJ35eMCAHUoYWWg-gzgKCF_jOLze1FUjq-HxFiTKY7dOO1YTUwt0JIZuFu3bfp_545yJ8r8kPmwdGYTsBDk2c4KdKk8iCovd4Amtw7LCUutggg?encodeFailures=1&width=1514&height=670[/img]
1
[img width=1100
height=619]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mlKQlA0pad7F6AOfW9Or44RB9JBnR83wNFtrMsbr1v5x5BKtEBak98HSdkeD9prWi9luyaqavrbChLQPi-mTKq29SyKkclikTgNywtmdGaIJr6_559y3ALYP9KU1nTMHDOps1Z-D6Wb7hsMaCIbBBxUNMNWX7eJmkHiqMSjkUM-Eb6_JNf2Ta13U8UQGf398KucIyeCo3UnvZk_DOTSY9kQ?encodeFailures=1&width=1562&height=879[/img]
2
[img width=494
height=879]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mIY0MpcrE1tUbdJiHpGUI8KaCY9r9bAo2Ortq-Buv4NOBSbRy7onmA-iX9CcQailKKIgwZ1w91KJdv3QT1BrohY9KvIkc0Iqw0JL3RfSLV4hN61UvBhwvjqlxO_l1P_6ShV7gAq5N9FjfHt5jRenAJJgPvxR1u89b7xUFU8mzLYleWl20gvr7heczNa_1j5d_WKJO1h4_3ZTiF5xJYBqPuQ?encodeFailures=1&width=494&height=879[/img]
3
[img width=494
height=879]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4muIoBbZSNB1zP1rDiIhbFXszSQZamQZzjB0SvJSeg-wDcR5SUsn7PoQsVAy31ViDvK6c-KtVzQJHeOnce3x4bs3ndifyE4yq-7Jy-PM9zHc7x_bosIhZnGSyNPcpmZrN_QxkMRYqgldwJWXArTkfT4Jyk8eukTiGbjIpEjFo2kgoOaMPqyCiik1BBcbIAJsHLKcXuZ7VhGKGpBWpb2Y9xhg?encodeFailures=1&width=494&height=879[/img]
4
[img width=494
height=879]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mkZMFVsp8iHymQFM93zbKMQ5yzcZ7fLJBoWo_X3J7ndRitKhAaF4PARDby7eAsE7Egxdit7xZKgkSC0KjKic_hRFhEJkB_vLm4WbPJjJGQM4rOmtxuX3Q-pAxsdMi6I05HPlheMzpe8kr3F81F_56hFhuDulTA5fGq8yfHW_kXFHwHIUeZ9SCk7IXBJ_22kHG4xeVGEJ030dLq7a5Rxr5mA?encodeFailures=1&width=494&height=879[/img]
5
[img width=494
height=879]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mzGkVGTx-csXcpZwSg5YPEruK-TYROxwrBsgnwrcl88p0HfwCwGWklWRSnXhhC9QXTzLF_1dV7BFdtKQ6atdlZRKSmG1rNN6HUBZSU6TPcAk43msw2mbDKjOc7imDtK9U1Jxy1RGa5KUSc-YD-VHkMRLlPb2xmhvf49MSxYq4qCFEm2_BpVJtMDYftoExw-6hK3gVQJajzDIGgpimh8WC2A?encodeFailures=1&width=494&height=879[/img]
6
[img width=494
height=879]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mWsaPuWCeq0VkI2-A4yFiQ43-D8i5LbW5WPMeB11znSNVZdP64VcWKI9poh753HancZQr9oVMvN3mAxuykH6snpZdzG-0a8qn5Af9D-DsV_cV9K7PgdL89tn45C0oFnwankUPusg_d2K268M_eBA9_ybKyIETO86i_FP194lOCyew_QYyLNghd58YAYYETQs24jzBhZRrSg11zwaIhGAHlA?encodeFailures=1&width=494&height=879[/img]
7
[img width=494
height=879]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mrDogwOh7PqpQOCDCDbHe46-nEtlCNavgAsztGhsgYvD7ALnyT7zuOvTvM7Ub2zu6f9cp87SyK9zFjIfuRnizx53YGfiWq-pyj31Y593p5R3O0eaO9KXcjTbJ7-ePdVeLjsl3rn6p7-gcyh6m-BwaFP7ssdrK001pgTyTdEYRJbHGq6y_s2ZcaktWLb5jWGiP6IaRvX-ElGgPzFw5nkVF9w?encodeFailures=1&width=494&height=879[/img]
8
[img width=494
height=879]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mSp7BXLk1rH3SbjDGIU0MCTLxzpVAWIelO5Y3jDY38zuhUseyFKaI-q0RzIPHI22RHpcMFM6ep_Or1juLbXplekVIjjostqJ15gmEQ85O7h-JfajROu81So_3eCHK4Cgv7t_h7kHTJNGMfhd_J7c3romNATlVynAk9nbascHIbOnlvpeOpQKPw-ISJbij6wLp_dHoVStx62r_NR_OhgcOZA?encodeFailures=1&width=494&height=879[/img]
9
[img width=494
height=879]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mnyMJBgamoiUomxHvkIcErYYDS_-MZyGDJh8xDpueG2wAhagV25GLqg7ajpFS1N6NfhSIKU96YxBT-zNO564YLQpSw7lWvTRzQYOoi65GK8m7RM1AxTN_AlVGLNU4ojWF3CClEMzhq1xQzzqvh9VDrfwf2GNMkZTLHHwKdmf2FouJJ-m_0_xAyC_JVr7YiMX0WqB6-N8DUBairzCYw5nCBQ?encodeFailures=1&width=494&height=879[/img]
10
[img width=1100
height=619]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mjOcEzmPdcUWgPFje16uztTAyAR1fi5ACCX22g1cPeefFscu4yRfJL7DWZdDu3NiCfQZ2cfxF9u5U9Yqgu_gmeLV06GnsjSaH9B4dzbiE5HfN8Mn-W3NWqEikI18whvXoxY6yfOLgg2yBNYArT4CoAnaREwd5xZj4LGDlGYygLxP1tN3MsAurLpindlqCf1BhmwgB_v_4xYKyI6L73QNV-Q?encodeFailures=1&width=1562&height=879[/img]
11
[img width=494
height=879]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mPqDw36HaQwpuXfvqNS2oomovG7pnfugViBKvYZPs7MAhjgM40UgPMZXeK-5il3QqqzMWIjoOU2laBdCPwtOfgFUh5OYMB5dM5v6GncFrTKOvzW4AL6uHl9PLtFqY5iaOnbrqIgLONQTay08quF4Scy8RkI0JJ02kpCB31y13G7OxD8U6b3Pn1_VsgSBuPpH9vMXZ5A9l6iEvGgwQ-jv2yg?encodeFailures=1&width=494&height=879[/img]
12
[img width=1100
height=619]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mOqSbICTv0nGQMwtVzrm7eOJHjo08CBIbk-n-xInd0ojcwxkF6J5LYH76Rj-kpijZ3jy6uzNsRHbqnDWVVtFtRxMg-H-PjHZ86gmpAw1TLZLU1DROscs7vVngP-_AMvv-g81Oq0W-LOLZZxoLiEmM5Li3zlMTpZsKzNqxNlTOyIB5Be_Ff0Wlgd_AJDrW9wn6pixiCKuwUA2kYztIjG07AQ?encodeFailures=1&width=1562&height=879[/img]
13
[img width=494
height=879]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mXEFLQMwrAl1FazBWVidXq201M9NEVE7t9m3nmo-mxoCYJflMUMF1sVLGyIi1oer9l0QUt_s_z_KNbfQkHaduvWKySRGhFOb66YVISypX7UxDoZZVRDJTxolO1TOEyxSSZ--M9G-Blb-u6W6J88AQRhFEWYkcZ1kE3sUe-c3G8UgGl7f089RHCITQ2gpAVQanaF3aKAREqJ6ThNy09Agh9Q?encodeFailures=1&width=494&height=879[/img]
14
[img width=494
height=879]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mf7_efLFOIh4kIn_OEMTlqWv9i2CYI7Nyhfatf-lh7ejwph4iIkWBDoQQsAFxNvB8U7jB_nfKjLqzFejXsWlwRAc92dFelfakFSHw56GOpFvvpDOb-w5CZcktuenGkRyVvI-HrexOCwZQpbrFAbCRxKTLh3FjrKMBUHSQmJ3JRfm24o2ZCsHpZfWz9icJGGfRgDT5pEjg3drsbWkOktiVQQ?encodeFailures=1&width=494&height=879[/img]
#Post#: 2358--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period.,
Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: August 1, 2023, 5:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
For the record, IMO not a hope in hell of winning this on
insufficient or misleading markings, I would not dwell on that
aspect.
CP's draft does have merit, even if council do not agree.
#Post#: 2379--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period.,
Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
DIR By: Charsiu
Date: August 2, 2023, 4:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
There is certainly a lot more signage than what is currently on
GSV, but my thoughts were focussed on the section of pictures
11-12. Where the zig-zag pedestrian markings commence for the
Traffic Light crossing (this interrupts the bus lane?) - I was
wondering if they needed a new sign for the Bus Lane when it
resumes after the zig-zags stop:
--- Quote ---
> A bus lane must be terminated at the start of the ziz-zags and
may pick up again at the end of the zig-zags on the far side of
the crossing.[quote]
--- End Quote ---
[/quote]
Also, look at picture 12, imagine if someone commenced driving
from the shops and pulled into the left lane of that road, with
the absence of a sign to indicate the bus lane enforcement after
the zig-zags, they would immediately infringe on the bus lane.
[img width=503
height=283]
HTML https://db3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4m2-Y0ovTQ7Lv692CCVanWr7mN9Mok5G61U9712F1ZaFeoOAgjVgQBDDF-vtj2AKXjW5RYSix4ShUGsxX1_mhKVIEeirwuZGEB7efflFecrHobAkaWbPzug6i5agSZPRDfJXqb-RM7diDCV1rjl3-FBLjwplRhFqjR5t3Sx9AQIBWHFveE-LhUafQmGeSz8utyvBPJNBQ8hBJscxlWzac6Hg?encodeFailures=1&width=504&height=283[/img]
Though, I appreciate this might be a clutch at straws and have a
better chance with cp8759's technical/legal defense.
#Post#: 2380--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period.,
Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: August 2, 2023, 4:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Charsiu link ---
> .....- I was wondering if they needed a new sign for the Bus
Lane when it resumes after the zig-zags stop:....
>
> Also, look at picture 12, imagine if someone commenced driving
from the shops and pulled into the left lane of that road, with
the absence of a sign to indicate the bus lane enforcement after
the zig-zags, they would immediately infringe on the bus
lane.........
>
--- End Quote ---
No new sign needed though an adjudicator may take the view that
someone entering from the shops was disadvantaged and allow an
appeal.
But you didn't join the lane that way.
Obviously none of us know (and you don't need to tell us) how
far along the road you had travelled or when you entered the bus
lane but the video shows you in it as you left the zig zags.
An adjudicator is likely to assume that you had travelled far
enough to be well aware that it was a bus lane
#Post#: 2385--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period.,
Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 2, 2023, 6:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The technical issues have much weight IMO. Also, some of those
pictures clearly show a motorbike so the Traffic Management
Order should be interesting.
#Post#: 2454--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period.,
Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 2, 2023, 3:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I might also have another technical argument in the pipeline.
In the meantime please post the Enforcement Notice on here when
it comes through.
#Post#: 2558--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period.,
Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 4, 2023, 4:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If this goes to the Tribunal, I wonder what colour the face of
the parking manager will turn when s/he is asked which grounds
of the LLA Act were considered! There is also an anomaly re "At
any time".
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