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#Post#: 33200--------------------------------------------------
UKPC Parking Charge - Exceeded Free Time Limit by 10 minutes -
Highbridge Retail Park, Waltham Abbey
DIR By: FY12345
Date: August 13, 2024, 4:06 am
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Hi, any advice would be appreciated.
UKPC issued this parking charge letter to me, because I am the
registered keeper of the vehicle. The charging ticket showed the
vehicle entered and exited the premise with a total time span of
2 hours 40 minutes and 42 seconds, which exceeded the maximum
stay time of 2 hours 30 minutes.
The incident occurred on 4th August, 2024. The letter was dated
as 7th August, 2024, and I received it via post on 12th August,
2024.
I found the parking charge notice was very unfair.
The driver (with two young children) after parked up the car in
the retail park, noticed the UKPC sign. The driver took a
picture of the signage and noted down the time of parking (which
is already 9 minutes later than the arrival time shown on the
parking charge notice) and went on with the shopping. The driver
went to the McDonald's and ordered some takeaways before
returning to the car.
The best effort was made to ensure parking time was within the
stated maximum limit of 2 hours 30 minutes. Although we do not
have proof of the time of leaving the park, we are confident the
parking session was kept within the 2 hour 30 minutes limit.
Unfortunately, the UKPC's allegation are based on the entry and
exit time instead of parking time and no allowance for grace
period was given. It seems all very harsh.
The wording on the parking charge notice seems to follow the
rules set by POFA 2012. The definition of stay and parking were
made very ambiguous and it was also not clear when and where
they started to time the stay. It seems UKPC timed it from the
moment the vehicle passed the entrance of the car park. This
seems very unfair because the driver would not realised this is
a private carpark and would not have time to read the terms and
conditions shown on the UKPC signage.
I had a quick check of Highbridge Retail Park, the landlord of
the retail park was Legal & General Asset Management, which is
very unlikely to respond to my queries. The managing agent of
the retail park is unknown. I have spoken with the manager of
the McDonald's, who has agreed to email UKPC to request a
cancellation of this parking charge notice (no guarantee).
I have not yet started UKPC's appeal process, but I have sent
UKPC's complaint department an email as the keeper of the
vehicle, informing them the McDonald's on duty manager is
sending them a request for cancellation.
Any advice on how to proceed would be appreciated.
I have attached the parking charge letter from UKPC below (not
sure whether the link worked...).
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Ntz7ttf.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/oxAGbd6.jpeg
#Post#: 33204--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC Parking Charge - Exceeded Free Time Limit by 10 minutes
- Highbridge Retail Park, Waltham Abbey
DIR By: Dave65
Date: August 13, 2024, 4:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Indeed the times are taken from the entry and exit by cameras.
Again it shows how petty these PPC are, although this could be
just done by automation.
Hopefully, they will not press this to court on such a trivial
few seconds (again no guarantee).
Follow up and press the Manager.
#Post#: 33206--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC Parking Charge - Exceeded Free Time Limit by 10 minutes
- Highbridge Retail Park, Waltham Abbey
DIR By: b789
Date: August 13, 2024, 4:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Keep on with your Plan A with the McD's manager. You can still
try and contact the landowner to find out who their managing
agent is.
Fortunately, this is a UKPC PCN. No amount of appeal to them or
POPLA will get this overturned. Unless Plan A is successful,
this will go all the way to a court claim which is a good thing.
A small claims track hearing in the county court is the ultimate
dispute resolution service and only a judge would decide whether
the keeper owes a debt to UKPC or not.
Experience tells us that as long as the advice is followed and a
defence is made, UKPC through their roboclaim solicitors, DCB
Legal, will eventually discontinue before they have to pay the
trial fee. There is evidence of this over on the MSE forum with
almost 400 discontinuations by them in the last two years.
The secret is to ignore any and all debt collector letters as
they are useless and powerless to do anything except to try and
scare the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree into
capitulating and paying. Eventually, once a claim is filed, you
defend and ignore the attempts by them to settle for a reduced
fee and they discontinue.
For now, you can try a basic appeal which will be rejected but
you will get a POPLA code where you can argue the grace period
and breach of their ATAs Code of Practice.
Have a look at the new Joint CoP for the information on grace
periods:
The private parking sector single Code of Practice
HTML https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/NEW%20Redesigned%20Documents/sectorsingleCodeofPracticeVersion1260624.pdf
Section 5.2 in particular.
#Post#: 33207--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC Parking Charge - Exceeded Free Time Limit by 10 minutes
- Highbridge Retail Park, Waltham Abbey
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 13, 2024, 4:57 am
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The driver took a picture of the signage and noted down the time
of parking
Has this been posted?
#Post#: 33215--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC Parking Charge - Exceeded Free Time Limit by 10 minutes
- Highbridge Retail Park, Waltham Abbey
DIR By: FY12345
Date: August 13, 2024, 6:18 am
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> The driver took a picture of the signage and noted down the
time of parking
>
> Has this been posted?
>
--- End Quote ---
Sorry, I forgot to post the signage photo. The driver took it
after parked the car to read the terms and condition and also to
remember what time he/she should leave.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/kxyYs4f.jpeg
#Post#: 33218--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC Parking Charge - Exceeded Free Time Limit by 10 minutes
- Highbridge Retail Park, Waltham Abbey
DIR By: b789
Date: August 13, 2024, 6:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
You only have to point out to POPLA that UKPC have failed to
comply with their latest Joint Code of Practice at point
3.1.3(j) which states:
--- Quote ---
> 3.1.3. Signs within controlled land displaying the specific
terms and conditions
> applying must:
>
> j) display the parking charge that the parking operator may
apply for breaches of such terms and conditions as may apply in
a large font;
--- End Quote ---
Then also show them the difference between their crappy signs
and the sign in the Beavis case which they love to harp on
about:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/ILNuE7b.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/xQoQ6QF.jpeg
#Post#: 33221--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC Parking Charge - Exceeded Free Time Limit by 10 minutes
- Highbridge Retail Park, Waltham Abbey
DIR By: FY12345
Date: August 13, 2024, 6:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for all the input.
So sounds like the best cause of action is:
1) Wait to see whether this ticket can be cancelled by the
McDonald's manager,
2) If not successful, then appeal with UKPC's internal appeal
portal, the best defense would be
a) They timed from the entry and exit without giving time
allowance for the driver to read the signage to accept the
contract, without marking the entry and exit where cameras were
operating and showing the driver the timestamp (like many
supermarket carparks do), it would be impossible for drivers to
accurately adhere to the time limit.
b) The photographic record from the driver showed that he/she
parked the car at 17:18 which was 9 minutes later than UKPC's
arrival time. This was the only known information the driver had
at that time to enable him to abide to the parking rules set by
UKPC. If any legally binding contract was formed between the car
park operator and the driver, it should start from that time. In
that case, the total stay in the car park would be 2 hours 31
minutes, and considering the time it takes to drive from the
parking spot to the exit, the parking time should be well within
the time limit stated in the signage.
c) No grace period was given to allow the driver to leave the
premise, which conventionally should be around 10 minutes, which
would also have nullified the stated violation.
d) UKPC possibly abusing the definition of parking vs stay on
the signage, causing unnecessary confusion. It sounds like the
driver can park the car and the car can stay in the car park for
2 hours 30 minutes. During enforcement, the rule was strictly
based on physical presence within the premise perimeter, whether
the vehicle is still in motion or not. It was not clear to the
driver, how this 2 hours 30 minutes would be measured, therefore
a reasonable grace period should also be necessary?
3) The above appeal is very likely to be turned down, but UKPC
will send you a POPLA code to escalate the case to POPLA. The
driver should then reiterate the defense all over again. Is it
true that the new ATA code will not be implemented by the end of
the year, and UKPC is not obligated to follow them at the time
of the incident? So it would only be a defense from the moral
high ground?
4) There is high risk that POPLA might be inundated with appeal
cases and might not act in the best interests of consumers. If
that happens, this case will go to the small claims court.
5) It is likely that UKPC will pull out before going to the
court to avoid paying the court fees.
I should also ignore all the forthcoming debt collector letters
and concentrate on the online appeal portal, POPLA appeal, and
court letters only?
#Post#: 33223--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC Parking Charge - Exceeded Free Time Limit by 10 minutes
- Highbridge Retail Park, Waltham Abbey
DIR By: b789
Date: August 13, 2024, 6:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The actual appeal to UKPC (Plan B) does not ave to be
sophisticated at all. UKPC are guaranteed to reject it under any
circumstances. No money in it for them.
The whole point of doing the Plan B appeal is get the POPLA code
for your Plan C appeal where you go to town on UKPCs failures.
A simple appeal along these lines is enough to get the POPLA
code:
--- Quote ---
> I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle.
I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be
making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client
landowner.
>
> There will be no admission as to who was driving and no
inference or assumptions can be drawn.
>
> Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation
of the allegations and your evidence. You must include a close
up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location
on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.
>
> I suggest you cancel the PCN or issue me with a POPLA code.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 33224--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC Parking Charge - Exceeded Free Time Limit by 10 minutes
- Highbridge Retail Park, Waltham Abbey
DIR By: FY12345
Date: August 13, 2024, 6:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> You only have to point out to POPLA that UKPC have failed to
comply with their latest Joint Code of Practice at point
3.1.3(j) which states:
>
> [quote]3.1.3. Signs within controlled land displaying the
specific terms and conditions
> applying must:
>
> j) display the parking charge that the parking operator may
apply for breaches of such terms and conditions as may apply in
a large font;
--- End Quote ---
Then also show them the difference between their crappy signs
and the sign in the Beavis case which they love to harp on
about:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/ILNuE7b.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/xQoQ6QF.jpeg
[/quote]
Thank you so much. Indeed, the driver didn't realise the penalty
would be £100 until after the parking charge notice was issued,
otherwise the driver would not have stayed so close to the
stated time limit.
#Post#: 33250--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC Parking Charge - Exceeded Free Time Limit by 10 minutes
- Highbridge Retail Park, Waltham Abbey
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 13, 2024, 10:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The posted sign states:
Clock face 2 hours 30 minutes ..illegible
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