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#Post#: 24201--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
DIR By: NotFair
Date: May 28, 2024, 3:12 am
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Thanks for the replies.
Unfortunately cp8759, I missed your message. It turns out all
e-mail notifications from this forum appear to be getting
intercepted by the spam filter, which is a shame, as I'd have
taken you up on it.
The hearing was on the papers. I had no ability to attend
personally.
I will dig out the original reps.
This was my LT appeal (which I expect to be criticised for!):
--- Quote ---
>
> ABUSE OF PROCESS
> Transport for London have taken in excess of 5 months to
respond to the representations initially submitted. This is
significantly more than the 56 day limit stated in the
regulations. It is highly unreasonable for Transport for London
to abuse the process in this manner. Despite the length of time
taken, their response does not in any way address the
representations submitted and almost entirely ignores the core
issue raised. This is unreasonably dismissive and constitutes a
failure to consider.
>
> ORIGINAL REPRESENTATIONS
> TfL have largely ignored the original representation that the
yellow box junction in question is invalid. The yellow box does
not meet the official definition per the law. We maintain that
the contravention cannot have occurred on this basis.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 24203--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
DIR By: MrChips
Date: May 28, 2024, 3:26 am
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Alas, yes, an in person (or on the phone) appeal would have
helped here as there's nothing in the text below which guides
the adjudicator as to why you think the road doesn't meet the
legal definition (key to stress it's private and gated so the
public don't have unfettered access). A link to that picture on
Google Street View with the gate closed would have been really
useful.
The reference to 56 days probably also threw him off as that's a
misstatement of the box junction legislation. He needed to be
reminded (made aware?) that the adjudicators have themselves
stated 3 months as the benchmark for unfair delay without a good
excuse from TFL.
Not trying to make you feel worse, just trying to be
constructive for future cases to avoid same mistake being made
twice.
Hopefully, someone here can assist with a review application.
#Post#: 24300--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
DIR By: meaty
Date: May 28, 2024, 3:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MrChips link ---
>
> Alas, yes, an in person (or on the phone) appeal would have
helped here as there's nothing in the text below which guides
the adjudicator as to why you think the road doesn't meet the
legal definition
>
--- End Quote ---
I find it unbelievable that these adjudicators who are supposed
to be the experts need to be led by lay people. Is there
anything in their remit that says they must put on blinkers and
only look at what they've been told? They should check the
legality of every box as part of a standard process regardless
of whether or not it is raised in the appeal.
#Post#: 24310--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 28, 2024, 4:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: meaty link ---
>
> [quote author=MrChips link=topic=277.msg24203#msg24203
date=1716884772]
> Alas, yes, an in person (or on the phone) appeal would have
helped here as there's nothing in the text below which guides
the adjudicator as to why you think the road doesn't meet the
legal definition
>
--- End Quote ---
I find it unbelievable that these adjudicators who are supposed
to be the experts need to be led by lay people. Is there
anything in their remit that says they must put on blinkers and
only look at what they've been told? They should check the
legality of every box as part of a standard process regardless
of whether or not it is raised in the appeal.
[/quote]
Well, sorry, but they are adjudicators, so must only deal with
the evidence presented to them by the two parties. That's the
way it works, and is intended to work, so if there is a next
time, come on here and never, ever, go for an adjudication on
papers-only basis.
#Post#: 24320--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
DIR By: NotFair
Date: May 28, 2024, 5:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Do the adjudicators not refer to the original reps (as is stated
when completing the tribunal application)?
I didn't include all the fine details as they're all mentioned
in the reps, which they say they will read...
The process is unfair to the lay person (me) if the adjudication
only looks at the tribunal form and absolutely nothing else.
#Post#: 24321--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 28, 2024, 5:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Have you requested a review of the decision ?
#Post#: 24326--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
DIR By: meaty
Date: May 28, 2024, 6:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> [quote author=meaty link=topic=277.msg24300#msg24300
date=1716927916]
> [quote author=MrChips link=topic=277.msg24203#msg24203
date=1716884772]
> Alas, yes, an in person (or on the phone) appeal would have
helped here as there's nothing in the text below which guides
the adjudicator as to why you think the road doesn't meet the
legal definition
>
--- End Quote ---
I find it unbelievable that these adjudicators who are supposed
to be the experts need to be led by lay people. Is there
anything in their remit that says they must put on blinkers and
only look at what they've been told? They should check the
legality of every box as part of a standard process regardless
of whether or not it is raised in the appeal.
[/quote]
Well, sorry, but they are adjudicators, so must only deal with
the evidence presented to them by the two parties. That's the
way it works, and is intended to work, so if there is a next
time, come on here and never, ever, go for an adjudication on
papers-only basis.
[/quote] Wasn't me doing the appeal. How do you know this is the
way it is intended to work? Do you have a link to their terms of
reference or job description that says this? Its not "evidence"
that's the issue. The "evidence" of an illegal box is staring
them in the face, its the fact they refuse to consider or check
it unless a lay motorist raises it. I saw the same for years at
the illegal box outside camberwell bus garage.
#Post#: 24402--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
DIR By: NotFair
Date: May 29, 2024, 2:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Not yet.
I came here to seek some advice first.
Please feel free to suggest what I should write?
I thought my tribunal appeal was fine 🤷🏽.
Clearly it wasn't.
#Post#: 24412--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 29, 2024, 3:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NotFair link ---
>
> Not yet.
> I came here to seek some advice first.
> Please feel free to suggest what I should write?
> I thought my tribunal appeal was fine 🤷🏽.
> Clearly it wasn't.
>
--- End Quote ---
Have you posted the full reps, and was it put up here for a
review before the adjudication ? ALso this was a papers-based
adjudication ? Bitter experience here of papers-based
adjudications means we never recommend this. I'm afraid it is a
fact that there are some adjudicators at LT that can only be
described as "time servers". So best to go for a review if
you're still in time to request one.
#Post#: 24424--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
DIR By: NotFair
Date: May 29, 2024, 5:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes, post 19. I posted that a couple of days before submission
to TfL.
It was, unfortunately, a papers hearing. Lesson learned.
I still have 5 days to go before the 14 days for review are up.
I am just wondering what to write and how to phrase, as the
review criteria seem very specific.
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