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#Post#: 32716--------------------------------------------------
Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St right
turn into Moss Hall Grove
DIR By: Mamite001
Date: August 8, 2024, 11:20 am
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Hello everyone and thanks so much for helping -
I was caught on CCTV turning right from Nether St to Moss Hall
Grove (into school zone).
There is a warning sign on Nether St (ahead of the right turn).
And there are the 2 actual signs on both sides of the mouth of
Moss Hall Grove.
I identified 2 issues with the warning sign on Nether Street.
1) The sign is obscured by vegetation.
But note that the actual signs on the mouth of Moss Hall
Grove are not obscured.
2) The sign is ambiguous, reading 8.15-9.15 but omitting "am").
But note that the actual signs do read "8.15-9.15 am".
My questions:
1) Are the above issues with the warning sign significant given
that the actual signs are free of these issues?
2) Are the issues significant enough to challenge the PCN?
Links to images:
Road layout (Google maps).
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lkh7tgpu3cxp16jpkne6b/satel.jpg?rlkey=idcdsck33dksfgvz487szemdz&st=gx4hwz4m&dl=0
Streetview from Nether St just coming to the warning sign
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/MKoKdFiKtKhz5vJh7
My streetview showing obscured warning sign (taken yesterday)
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/a8wk3ieoi7g5h5pc3mk9d/Obscured-pre-warning-1.jpg?rlkey=zvyu5pubjlmj0yhy2j4rmpe9y&st=pm3cbrqc&dl=0
Photo from Barnet evidence showing the 2 actual signs on the
mouth of Moss Hall Grove
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mfyce9y95n8ouy9gkt5tm/Barnet1.jpg?rlkey=lz92ll88kgcgqa000jyq7yv7f&st=0d2tdjux&dl=0<br
/>
Barnet School Streets signage guidlines
HTML https://www.engage.barnet.gov.uk/school-streets-frequently-asked-questions
The relevant traffic order is here
HTML https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4602206
and here
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pIv65pOZ7vLdr0BH5ZmZLskMQAnoLnLc/view.
The PCN
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/g2fb6lht2br6295fztwn7/PCN.jpeg?rlkey=h3qcmkildreal2481kuh7zs3d&st=uoaexaga&dl=0
Thanks in advance for all your help.
RN
#Post#: 32726--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St
right turn into Moss Hall Grove
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 8, 2024, 12:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Well, you have something on signage to put into a
representation. Not just the advance warning sign, but the
actual signs at the start of the restriction look as if they
would be obscured on approach. However, don't expect them to
roll over and cancel the PCN on reading your reps. Councils rely
on sending out Fob-Off letters, knowing most people then
cough-up not wanting to risk the additional dosh of the other
50% of the PCN penalty they might have to pay if they lose at
adjudication. That said, there are no additional costs in taking
the council to adjudication, just the full PCN penalty if one
loses.
#Post#: 32733--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St
right turn into Moss Hall Grove
DIR By: Mamite001
Date: August 8, 2024, 1:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Incandescent you are right that the actual sign on the right
side on the mouth of Moss Hall Grove might be obscured, but for
a driver taking the right turn from Nether St, it's the sign on
the left side that matters, and that sign is not obscured.
If I'm getting this wrong then happy to be corrected.
#Post#: 32739--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St
right turn into Moss Hall Grove
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 8, 2024, 3:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Mamite001 link ---
>
> Incandescent you are right that the actual sign on the right
side on the mouth of Moss Hall Grove might be obscured, but for
a driver taking the right turn from Nether St, it's the sign on
the left side that matters, and that sign is not obscured.
>
> If I'm getting this wrong then happy to be corrected.
>
--- End Quote ---
No you're not wrong, but why have two signs if one will "do".
The fact is that not seeing an advance sign means a motorist
could start turning right with a car approaching in the other
direction but normally in perfect safety. What is he supposed to
do if he sees the signs, jam his brakes on and cause a collision
?
Addendum
Also see this London Tribunals case
2240301003
#Post#: 32749--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St
right turn into Moss Hall Grove
DIR By: Mamite001
Date: August 8, 2024, 5:37 pm
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Incandescent I had no luck searching for case 2240301003 on this
page
HTML https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases?field_subjects_value=All&combine=2240301003?
#Post#: 32758--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St
right turn into Moss Hall Grove
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: August 9, 2024, 2:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Mamite001 link ---
>
> Incandescent I had no luck searching for case 2240301003 on
this page
HTML https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases?field_subjects_value=All&combine=2240301003?
>
--- End Quote ---
Try
HTML https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals
Scroll down and hit 'Access Statutory Registers'
Scroll down to 'ETA' and hit 'Search'
Enter case number.
Et voila!
---------
As it happens, CP conveniently posted the case here
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WKkcnlKnHvleGaRQbJAHXAdguC9sf-mt/viewyesterday
#Post#: 32790--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St
right turn into Moss Hall Grove
DIR By: Mamite001
Date: August 9, 2024, 6:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you John U.K. for the link to the appeal.
Here's a dash cam video
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8o2ludwSKo
of the right-turn
(taken this morning). The warning sign in question is just
visible @ 13 seconds.
I will write to the council within 14 days of the notice to:
1) contest the PCN based on signage obscured and ambiguous.
2) include a new link to the above video (with 0 views).
Should I include a link to appeal 2240301003
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WKkcnlKnHvleGaRQbJAHXAdguC9sf-mt/view,<br
/>which seems very similar to my case?
Any comments on what else I should include would be most
welcome. Thanks again for all your help. RN
#Post#: 32791--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St
right turn into Moss Hall Grove
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 9, 2024, 6:43 am
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I was the representative in that case. I will draft something
in a minute or so. I cannot access the documents via dropbox;
but....
Dear Council
I make this formal representation against PCN :
The contravention did not occur as:
1. You have failed to carry out your responsibilities under
LATOR to maintain the signage and curb the growth of the
vegetation which renders the advanced signage invisible.
2. Similarly,the plate on the left hand sign is covered by
foliage.
In light of the above, please take the eminently sensible course
of action and cancel the said PCN.
Yours faithfully
Reg. keeper
Address
******
I would not cite the case v WF as it is not relevant at this
stage.
#Post#: 32797--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St
right turn into Moss Hall Grove
DIR By: Mamite001
Date: August 9, 2024, 7:58 am
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Hippocrates the plate on the left (as well as on the right) has
been intentionally covered by the council sometime after the end
of the school term (25 July).
But note that the warning sign has not been covered. Is that
something I should mention in the representation to make the
point further that the council is not performing its duties and
thus confusing motorists?
BTW if dropbox doesn't work then try these google drive links:
Road layout
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jJj5mPkCtDarK_yGOHDbPERY0Yr2RICz/view<br
/>(Google maps).
My streetview
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hpRxN0YGCjK3JSUFbeT4fkTYX5kh-gfT/view<br
/>showing obscured warning sign (taken yesterday)
Photo from Barnet evidence
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CH2HlLI_V8SKUQTYu9zjWSBqMEibithz/view<br
/>showing the 2 actual signs on the mouth of Moss Hall Grove
#Post#: 32798--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet, code 53J entering in pedestrian zone, Nether St
right turn into Moss Hall Grove
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 9, 2024, 8:30 am
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Modified my post.
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