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#Post#: 32280--------------------------------------------------
Dart Charge PCNs
DIR By: rizlagunner
Date: August 5, 2024, 7:02 am
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I have received two PCNs (coming and going same day) for
crossing the Dartford tunnel. Admittedly I forgot to pay the
user charge by midnight the next day, however I made the payment
on the third or fourth day for both ways, as soon as I
remembered. A week later I received the PCNs in the post. There
is no mention of the payment I made. Is there any way to
challenge these PCNs?
HTML https://tinypic.host/images/2024/08/05/DC1.jpg
HTML https://tinypic.host/images/2024/08/05/DC2.jpg
#Post#: 32323--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dart Charge PCNs
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 5, 2024, 12:31 pm
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YOu might phone DART to explain that whilst didn't pay by the
DART-imposed deadline, you paid a few days later, so did not rob
DART of any income. See if they'll cancel. DART used to be quite
forgiving, but is now under a newer, and what seems to be a more
ruthless management, no doubt incentivised to get the money
rolling in.
There is, however, if you're prepared to risk the full PCN
penalty, a known flaw in many road user charge PCNs whereby the
toll is added on to the PCN. This is unlawful, but they get away
with it because nobody ever takes them to the Traffic Penalty
Tribunal. The case is Moran v Secretary of Transport
IA1249-1803 13th June 2018, and maybe somewhere on this forum.
The administrator will probably know. I have a link but it
doesn't work. The relevant regulations are: -
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/1783/regulation/7/made
#Post#: 32375--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dart Charge PCNs
DIR By: dyslexicdog
Date: August 6, 2024, 1:44 am
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Your VRM is on show if that matters to you 🤔
#Post#: 32378--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dart Charge PCNs
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: August 6, 2024, 2:08 am
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--- Quote from: dyslexicdog link ---
>
> Your VRM is on show if that matters to you 🤔
>
--- End Quote ---
[member=2289]dyslexicdog[/member]
Have you read
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
?
#Post#: 32379--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dart Charge PCNs
DIR By: dyslexicdog
Date: August 6, 2024, 2:38 am
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--- Quote from: John U.K. link ---
>
> [quote author=dyslexicdog link=topic=2721.msg32375#msg32375
date=1722926656]
> Your VRM is on show if that matters to you 🤔
>
--- End Quote ---
[member=2289]dyslexicdog[/member]
Have you read
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
?
[/quote]
I have.
With the information provided, anyone could create problems for
the OP with the information that has been provided so my
intention was to make OP aware so they could make their own
decision on risk.
Overall, I’m here to learn and discuss.
#Post#: 32396--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dart Charge PCNs
DIR By: rizlagunner
Date: August 6, 2024, 5:42 am
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--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> YOu might phone DART to explain that whilst didn't pay by the
DART-imposed deadline, you paid a few days later, so did not rob
DART of any income. See if they'll cancel. DART used to be quite
forgiving, but is now under a newer, and what seems to be a more
ruthless management, no doubt incentivised to get the money
rolling in.
>
> There is, however, if you're prepared to risk the full PCN
penalty, a known flaw in many road user charge PCNs whereby the
toll is added on to the PCN. This is unlawful, but they get away
with it because nobody ever takes them to the Traffic Penalty
Tribunal. The case is Moran v Secretary of Transport
IA1249-1803 13th June 2018, and maybe somewhere on this forum.
The administrator will probably know. I have a link but it
doesn't work. The relevant regulations are: -
>
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/1783/regulation/7/made
>
--- End Quote ---
So I've decided to be a risk taker and have appealed it. The
text of my representation is as follows:
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing with regard to the two PCNs IO15347227 and
IO15347271 issued on 19th July 2024. I wish to appeal on the
basis that I made the payment on 15th July 2024, under
transaction ID 1-526858804 as per payment receipt received by
text, screenshot of which is attached as proof of payment.
It therefore follows that penalty and user charge fees are not
due. I trust you will cancel the referenced PCNs.
Sincerely,
I will update this post on the outcome once received.
#Post#: 32402--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dart Charge PCNs
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 6, 2024, 6:19 am
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OK, "risktaker", we will cheer you on ! Of course if the matter
gets to adjudication, you will be able to quote the relevant
case of 2018 back to them. The maximum you'd be risking is, of
course, the full PCN penalties, there are no additional costs.
#Post#: 32432--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dart Charge PCNs
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 6, 2024, 9:06 am
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DART are permitted to recover the RUC, it says so in the Regs
and is repeated in their Charging Order.
But neither the regs nor the order permit recovery as if it were
a penalty.
IMO, a DART PCN sails close to the wind but does not, other than
by implication, require the RUC to be paid. The reference to a
CC omits any suggestion that the RUC is recoverable. However, as
shown in another current thread the CC itself goes too far IMO
by stating that if 'You do not pay' - without any qualification
and which could only reasonably be interpreted as referring to
Total to Pay which includes the RUC- then 'you will get a court
order demanding payment'.
This thread has similarities. The PCN clearly separates the
penalty from the RUC and it could be argued by them that this is
simply a statement of what's owed i.e. the penalty as a penalty
charge and the RUC generally as permitted under the order.
Perhaps the OP could find out what is demanded on the
authority's website payment page.
In the Caroline Sheppard decsion the authority at that time went
so far as to defend its position but whether this remains the
same today I don't know.
OP, have you actually sent your appeal? I ask because 'It
therefore follows that penalty and user charge fees are not due.
I trust you will cancel the referenced PCNs.' Is not a statement
of the law as I understand it. The penalty is owing because you
failed to pay the RUC in time. It is the RUC which in fairness
cannot be owing because you paid it* prior to the PCN being
issued.
*- does your receipt show clearly that your payments were in
respect of specified crossings? We wouldn't know, we haven't
seen them.
#Post#: 32514--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dart Charge PCNs
DIR By: rizlagunner
Date: August 7, 2024, 3:11 am
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Yes I have sent the appeal. It was largely based on a template
posted by the admin in another thread. I opted to receive the
receipt via text and it does not mention what crossing
specifically, only that they have received £5.00 from me.
As for what is demanded, on the PCN payment page it is the total
amount that is required to be paid.
HTML https://tinypic.host/images/2024/08/07/WhatsApp-Image-2024-08-05-at-23.16.56.jpeg
HTML https://tinypic.host/images/2024/08/07/screenshot-pay-dartford-crossing-fine.service.gov.uk-2024.08.07-09_15_59.png
HTML https://tinypic.host/images/2024/08/07/screenshot-pay-dartford-crossing-fine.service.gov.uk-2024.08.07-09_15_23.png
#Post#: 32516--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dart Charge PCNs
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 7, 2024, 3:26 am
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however I made the payment on the third or fourth day for both
ways,
Day 6 actually!
Surely you didn't just get on to their website and handover
2*RUC?
Anyway, have you croseed since 9 July and did you pay? If not,
then you should have a credit against your account/VRM. Perhaps
you would check.
Other than this, there's nothing to do but wait for their
response to your reps and, as asked by others, post exactly what
you submitted.
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