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#Post#: 31790--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for being in a box junction
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 31, 2024, 6:42 pm
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--- Quote from: Korting link ---
>
> How is this for my appeal:
>
> I am appealing this PCN on the following grounds grounds.
>
> It would appear that the size of the box is too long. The
corners of the junction have a very wide radius, but it is not
necessary for the box to cover that both corners. Indeed it
appears that it does not conform to the regulations as set out
in the ........ Can someone tell me what regulations!! if the
box would have been the correct length, I would have cleared it.
>
> No obstruction to other traffic was caused, indeed you can see
a car pulling out from the side turning and turning right
without any impediment.
>
> The white car in front of mine proceeded over the box junction
and then stopped when there was no need to and I had expected to
clear the box junction had the driver have moved up as they
should have.
>
> Under the circumstances I expect the Council to cancel this
PCN.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD
2016)
see Schedule 9 Regulation 11 (6)
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9/made
#Post#: 31792--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for being in a box junction
DIR By: Korting
Date: July 31, 2024, 6:47 pm
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How about this? Is it okay to send.
I am appealing this PCN on the following grounds grounds.
It would appear that the size of the box is too long. The
corners of the junction have a very wide radius, but it is not
necessary for the box to cover that both corners. Indeed it
appears that it does not conform to the regulations as set out
in the The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016
(TSRGD 2016) Schedule 9 Regulation 11 (6)
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9/
If the box would have been the correct length, I would have
cleared it.
No obstruction to other traffic was caused, indeed you can see a
car pulling out from the side turning and turning right without
any impediment.
The white car in front of mine proceeded over the box junction
and then stopped when there was no need to and I had expected to
clear the box junction had the driver have moved up as they
should have.
Under the circumstances I expect the Council to cancel this PCN.
#Post#: 31795--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for being in a box junction
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 31, 2024, 7:07 pm
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Looks OK to me, so ram it up them !
#Post#: 31831--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for being in a box junction
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 1, 2024, 6:32 am
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OP, manage your expectations on this one pl.
All the regs say is that as regards a 'box junction' this may
only be placed and is defined as a)at a junction between two or
more roads;
As far as I am aware there is no case law which clearly lays out
what is and is not to be considered as where two roads meet. *
If you've sent your reps then the die is cast and you can only
await their response.
If this goes further then you might want to look at the layout
of other box junctions in the council area e.g. do they all
follow the same pattern of being placed at the point where the
radius ends as it meets the parallel side of the road being
joined, as here. Or perhaps, as the Traffic Sign Manual (TSM)
shows, the corner of the box should be placed at the mid-point
of the radius. Another factor could be that the 'give way' road
markings in the side road terminate prior to the yellow box,
indicating that this is the correct extent of the 'junction'.
*- in simple terms, is the radius inclusive or exclusive to the
side road or, as per TSM, they have an equal share.
#Post#: 31833--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for being in a box junction
DIR By: Korting
Date: August 1, 2024, 6:38 am
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I haven’t sent anything in yet, should I modify the appeal?
#Post#: 31836--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for being in a box junction
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: August 1, 2024, 6:56 am
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I think you'll fail on this one - the box only extends to the
road width (it includes footways) and you entered the box when
the leading car was just past half-way through and you can see a
motorbike slowing ahead. There is no evidence of the other car
stopping short but you can try and convince an adjudicator.
Shame as there was loads of room to exit on the right.
#Post#: 31840--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for being in a box junction
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 1, 2024, 7:13 am
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Can't agree with this sweeping assumption, I'm afraid.
At the corners the footways are, for want of a better term,
shared. As the purpose of a box junction relates to vehicles and
not pedestrians then IMO it is more logical to consider the
extent of the side road as terminating where the 'Give Way' road
markings end, which is well before the end of the YBJ.
OP, if you have time to alter your appeal then IMO you must get
them to commit themselves and state the lawful authority which
supports their contention e.g. if the authority reject these
representations then they are obliged to provide authority for
their claim that a YBJ may be marked, and therefore effectively
extended, beyond the junction when the Traffic Signs Manual and
even their own 'Give Way' markings, which delimit the
carriageway here, indicate that the junction does not extend to
this point.
#Post#: 31844--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for being in a box junction
DIR By: Korting
Date: August 1, 2024, 7:49 am
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Can't agree with this sweeping assumption, I'm afraid.
>
> At the corners the footways are, for want of a better term,
shared. As the purpose of a box junction relates to vehicles and
not pedestrians then IMO it is more logical to consider the
extent of the side road as terminating where the 'Give Way' road
markings end, which is well before the end of the YBJ.
>
> OP, if you have time to alter your appeal then IMO you must
get them to commit themselves and state the lawful authority
which supports their contention e.g. if the authority reject
these representations then they are obliged to provide authority
for their claim that a YBJ may be marked, and therefore
effectively extended, beyond the junction when the Traffic Signs
Manual and even their own 'Give Way' markings, which delimit the
carriageway here, indicate that the junction does not extend to
this point.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you HCA. How do I do that? What should I put in?
#Post#: 31851--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for being in a box junction
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 1, 2024, 9:34 am
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I included a form of words in my previous post 'e.g.
**************.
Your argument is that where you stopped is not at a junction
between two roads and therefore, by virtue of paragraph * of
Schedule * to the Traffic*****, stopping at that point is not a
road traffic contravention and cannot be penalised.
#Post#: 31855--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for being in a box junction
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 1, 2024, 10:01 am
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There is a decision re Kingston box junction which is similar...
Case reference
Appellant
Authority
Contravention location
Penalty amount
Contravention
Decision Date
Adjudicator
Appeal decision
Direction
Reasons
of box junction markings supporting evidence being provided.
This box junction is not only marked at the junction between
these two roads but also in advance and beyond that junction.
It is not therefore marked in compliance with The Traffic Signs
Regulations and General Directions 2016 this penalty charge thus
being unenforceable.
The appeal is accordingly allowed.
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