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#Post#: 2278--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 31, 2023, 4:32 pm
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--- Quote from: ST_2023 link ---
>
> [quote author=Incandescent link=topic=266.msg2229#msg2229
date=1690799288]
> There is also no 20 metre rule.
>
> At one time the TPT used such a figure, but there is nothing
in the legislation or regulations, it is up to individual
adjudicators whether to consider a de minimis argument or not.
As far as I know, London Tribunals and before them, PATAS, never
mentioned any rule. De minimis is subjective, so one
adjudicator may well disagree with another.
>
--- End Quote ---
20 metre rule argument was used in this case, I thought that
might have some importance, but if that is going to be
detrimental, happy to remove it.
Sarah-Jane Mendonca v London Borough of Waltham Forest
(2210480049, 06 September 2021)
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RhyBA-cF3Jh_yqpadQuYpPSiSX6ter5T/view
[/quote]
Thanks for putting up this link. So there are people around who
consider there IS a 20 metre rule, but it is nowhere to be seen
in any of the legislation or regulations. The key line of the
decision is this: -
--- Quote ---
> "There is a 20 metre rule that should normally be observed
before any PCN should be issued"
--- End Quote ---
Well, this is the first time I suspect any council has heard
about this so called rule ! Interesting, though, because it can
be quoted to support trivial (de minimis) intrusions into bus
lanes.
#Post#: 2389--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 2, 2023, 6:27 am
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One of Kevin Moore's decisions as far as I recall mentioned
the said "rule". As far as I am concerned it is mere fantasy.
#Post#: 2404--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: Glitch
Date: August 2, 2023, 8:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The only consistent thing about Adjudicators is their
inconsistency.
Some believe in the mythical 20m rule and at least one thought
the 'End of Bus Lane' sign was mandatory.
On that basis I'd try all options in the hope something might
stick and go for lucky dip on which adjudicator you get.
The lack of maintenance on the bus lane is so annoying. That gap
in the 'continuous thick white line' has got bigger in the past
few years.
They rake in at least £1m per year from this 183m long,
pointless bus lane but they can't afford a lick of paint to make
it fully compliant.
The context and layout of the junction is impossible to derive
from the photos and video. You need (IMO) to be in the left hand
lane for all the exits expect southbound A12.
The OP has entered the bus lane 12m-13m from the end. As is
usual there's no bus to be seen. OP concentrating on traffic and
lights 50m ahead and needs to be in LH lane.
There is no end of bus lane sign. It should have one because of
driver behaviour. Those getting tickets invariably clip the last
few metres and need additional clarity.
End of bus lane not clear to to ever growing gap, currently
estimated between 1m - 1.5m. The meaning of 'Substantially
compliant' is being stretched. How long does it need to be
before it is non-compliant?
Yeah I hate this bus lane with a vengeance >:(
#Post#: 2467--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 2, 2023, 4:29 pm
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Don't mention the camera issue. They have a new certificate, but
there's more to it than that. Can't say more for now.
#Post#: 2491--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: ST_2023
Date: August 2, 2023, 6:23 pm
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Ah! I already appealed with below, lets see what I hear back
from them.
Dear Sirs
Ref: PCN: FR60075661 VRM: EN59RHY
I challenge the said PCN on the following grounds:
1. The contravention did not occur as I merely attempted to
merge into the exit lane to turn left thus creating a situation
which can only be described as de minimis. There is a 20 metre
rule that should normally be observed before any PCN should be
issued and in this case the vehicle clearly was not driven in
the bus lane for this distance. In this case the appellant
simply made a permitted left turn across a bus lane for no more
than 10 metres before turning left at the roundabout.
2. The video does not show any signs allegedly passed.
3. There is a break in the solid white line which is confusing.
4. The photographs provided are more helpful in relation to
where the vehicle crossed over and the arrow indicating vehicles
could enter the lane. This is clearly almost immediately after
the vehicle crossed over. No end sign can be observed in those
pictures.
4. I put you to strict proof that the camera used satisfies the
admissibility of evidence at the Tribunal as provided at Para
7(2) of Schedule 1 of The London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as
amended) and Part II.
Please cancel the PCN, particularly also as this is the first
time I have received such a PCN.
#Post#: 3616--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 21, 2023, 4:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> Don't mention the camera issue. They have a new certificate,
but there's more to it than that. Can't say more for now.
>
--- End Quote ---
Please e mail me what tricks you are devising at present.
#Post#: 3641--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: Glitch
Date: August 21, 2023, 9:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
99.999% LBWF will just reject as they always do.
If the OP is willing to take the gamble at Tribunal, or the
opportunity arises in another case I would play on the break in
the line getting bigger and the lack on the 'end of bus lane'
sign. Although not mandatory Chapter 3 Road signs says:
--- Quote ---
> 9.3.9.  The end of a with‑flow bus lane will
usually be obvious through the termination of the
> diagram 1049A marking. If considered necessary due to observed
driver behaviour, an upright
> sign to diagram 964 (S9‑4‑11, see Figure 9-5) may
be sited as shown in Figure 9-1. The lane
> should normally be stopped short of the Stop line at traffic
signal controlled junctions
--- End Quote ---
Observed driver behaviour shows people cutting across the last
10-15 metres. The gap in the line is large, getting larger and
compounded by lack of sign it can be confusing for drivers.
You can see from GSV images over recent years that there is no
maintenance and the gap is getting bigger - 16 months ago it was
approx 1.3m.
If this one goes to tribunal I will go down there myself and get
an accurate measurement.
When does a continuous thick white line become not substantially
continuous?
Chapter 5 Roadmarkings - edge of carriageway (dashed white
lines) Diagram 1010 - has a spacing of 1m (1000mm)
They make over £1m per year from this 183m long 'At all times'
bus lane that has 6 - 10 buses per hour at peak times (06:00 -
20:00) and every 15 - 30 mins the rest of the time. The rest of
Whipps cross road is single lanes. They can surely afford to fix
a gap in the roadmarkings?
#Post#: 3644--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: Glitch
Date: August 21, 2023, 9:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I would also add some context for the Adjudicator to consider
about the need to get in the left hand lane at the traffic
lights.
HTML https://i.ibb.co/kmpwyhx/Green-Man-Roundabout.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/xFyBsMD
Other than southbound A12 you need to be in the left hand lane
for all other exits.
Also make it clear that CCTV shows the very end of the bus lane
and likely to clip the end.
#Post#: 3660--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 21, 2023, 3:48 pm
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Clearly a job for the Maestro.
#Post#: 3696--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: ST_2023
Date: August 22, 2023, 8:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi all, I have received a response from LBWF today via post
following my appeal. Please see attached. What are the chances
of further going to tribunal and winning this?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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