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#Post#: 2040--------------------------------------------------
Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
DIR By: ST_2023
Date: July 28, 2023, 5:50 am
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Hello,
I recently received a PCN (Penalty Charge Notice) due to a
contravention (number 34) for allegedly being in a bus lane. The
incident occurred while I was driving along Whipps Cross Road
E11. As I approached the end of the bus lane, I needed to switch
to the left lane in order to exit at the roundabout traffic
lights. Regrettably, I began the manoeuvre a bit early and
crossed the bus lane but there was no bus behind me. I want to
emphasize that my intention was solely to merge into the correct
lane and not to undertake any cars or disrupt traffic flow.
I am looking to contest this PCN on the aforementioned basis and
would greatly appreciate any advice on how to structure my
challenge effectively. While researching previous appeals made
at this location, I came across references to 'approved devices'
and succeeding, however my concern is if they have a new
certificate or if this camera is still non-compliant to issue
penalties.
Location:
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/ThZCPK5m9pdLo4ju9
HTML https://walthamforestecho.co.uk/2022/08/03/waltham-forest-drivers-escape-fines-thanks-to-stranger-wielding-little-known-law/#article
Thank you for your assistance and understanding. Looking forward
to your response.
Best regards,
ST
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 2041--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 28, 2023, 6:04 am
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This is not as time-sensitive as you might think: if you
challenge the PCN today, the discount will be re-offered.
Assuming you don't pay, you will then be sent an Enforcement
Notice demanding the full penalty, but as long as you challenge
that within 14 days, the discount will be re-offered again.
Please give us the PCN number and the number plate so that I can
post the video on here.
#Post#: 2044--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: ST_2023
Date: July 28, 2023, 7:32 am
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Hi cp8759, thanks for replying.
Please see attached PCN number and plate details.
Would you be so kind to share strongly worded template for
appealing. As the alleged incursion was de minimis, does that
stand a chance at all?
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 2104--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 29, 2023, 6:49 am
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Video:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4b1M2lnjD8
The relevant cases that can be cited on de-minimis are Ashfaq
Ahmad Chaudhry v London Borough of Merton (2130253836, 11 July
2013)
HTML http://bit.ly/2QMNNAY
and Sarah-Jane Mendonca v London Borough
of Waltham Forest (2210480049, 06 September 2021)
HTML https://bit.ly/3tswtlU.
I will make some enquiries about the camera certification, in
the meantime I suggest you type up a draft in your own words for
the informal representations and put it on here for review.
#Post#: 2220--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: ST_2023
Date: July 31, 2023, 1:48 am
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I have drafted below with the help of Schofeldt in PePiPoo forum
to appeal:
Dear Sirs
Ref: PCN: FR60075661 VRM: EN59RHY
I challenge the said PCN on the following grounds:
1. The contravention did not occur as I merely attempted to
merge into the exit lane to turn left thus creating a situation
which can only be described as de minimis. There is a 20 metre
rule that should normally be observed before any PCN should be
issued and in this case the vehicle clearly was not driven in
the bus lane for this distance. In this case the appellant
simply made a permitted left turn across a bus lane for no more
than 10 metres before turning left at the roundabout.
2. The video does not show any signs allegedly passed.
3. There is a break in the solid white line which is confusing.
4. The photographs provided are more helpful in relation to
where the vehicle crossed over and the arrow indicating vehicles
could enter the lane. This is clearly almost immediately after
the vehicle crossed over. No end sign can be observed in those
pictures.
4. I put you to strict proof that the camera used satisfies the
admissibility of evidence at the Tribunal as provided at Para
7(2) of Schedule 1 of The London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as
amended) and Part II (**I will wait for your confirmation on
this one**)
Further to this please see previous appeals for this
contravention which were upheld in favour of the appellant.
Ashfaq Ahmad Chaudhry v London Borough of Merton (2130253836, 11
July 2013) and
Sarah-Jane Mendonca v London Borough of Waltham Forest
(2210480049, 06 September 2021).
Please cancel the PCN, particularly also as this is the first
time I have received such a PCN.
Yours faithfully,
ST
#Post#: 2223--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: July 31, 2023, 3:31 am
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Too good. 8) The part about waiting for confirmation I would
omit.
#Post#: 2229--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 31, 2023, 5:28 am
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There is also no 20 metre rule.
At one time the TPT used such a figure, but there is nothing in
the legislation or regulations, it is up to individual
adjudicators whether to consider a de minimis argument or not.
As far as I know, London Tribunals and before them, PATAS, never
mentioned any rule. De minimis is subjective, so one
adjudicator may well disagree with another.
#Post#: 2256--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: ST_2023
Date: July 31, 2023, 9:12 am
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--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> Too good. 8) The part about waiting for confirmation I would
omit.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, I plan to omit when appealing but in the interim, I wanted
to wait if cp8759 managed to close in on the camera
certification and camera's compliance to issue fines.
#Post#: 2257--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: ST_2023
Date: July 31, 2023, 9:16 am
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--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> There is also no 20 metre rule.
>
> At one time the TPT used such a figure, but there is nothing
in the legislation or regulations, it is up to individual
adjudicators whether to consider a de minimis argument or not.
As far as I know, London Tribunals and before them, PATAS, never
mentioned any rule. De minimis is subjective, so one
adjudicator may well disagree with another.
>
--- End Quote ---
20 metre rule argument was used in this case, I thought that
might have some importance, but if that is going to be
detrimental, happy to remove it.
Sarah-Jane Mendonca v London Borough of Waltham Forest
(2210480049, 06 September 2021)
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RhyBA-cF3Jh_yqpadQuYpPSiSX6ter5T/view
#Post#: 2277--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane
contravention
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: July 31, 2023, 4:03 pm
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One can always modify later. They do have a new certificate.
Basically, they will ignore other cases anyway. The nature of
the beast. The more important reps. are against the EN.
Provided the challenge is not vacuous, I would include
everything.
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=145245&pid=1725100&mode=threaded&start=#entry1725100
HTML https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/list-of-certifications-granted-for-approved-devices
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