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#Post#: 31148--------------------------------------------------
Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons
to court
DIR By: moonshine23
Date: July 25, 2024, 9:30 am
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I received a NIP with a typo on the road name and a date of
10/11/23 at 06:00. This wasn't me at all so I replied back
saying I wasn't the driver and attached evidence of my Google
Timeline History and a request for ANPR cameras to be checked as
I didn't have the authority to do this. My vehicle didn't leave
my address.
I also emailed a copy of my supporting letter across to the
camera enforcement team and no response was received.
I received a SJP bundle saying I had two offences. One being the
original offence of speeding and another being failure to
respond. In the bundle, the paperwork evidence shows a timestamp
of another date and time (17/11/23 at 2:30) with a PC statement
saying the car was caught with a camera but the officer was
assisting elsewhere and unable to stop the vehicle.
I've been summoned to court after responding not guilty and
declaring that the NIP and SJP bundle are two separate dates -
neither of which are me.
Could someone assist me in how to conduct myself in court? My
car was parked at my daughters address as she is the primary
user of the vehicle and I've asked her to be a witness.
As the officer didn't stop the vehicle there isn't any evidence
of who the real driver was. Police suggested calling 101 to
report a false plate which I tried but they were unable to
because there isn't a way to check the cameras that far back. I
am wondering whether other actions need to be taken.
I was hoping to point out the errors to the Magistrates Court
however not sure how to go about proving I did actually respond
back to the NIP besides my email.
Thanks so much for your help
#Post#: 31152--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP -
Summons to court
DIR By: The Rookie
Date: July 25, 2024, 9:42 am
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So the incorrect road name is now irrelevant it would seem (and
probably never would have helped anyway if the road it referred
to was 'obvious').
The S172 request didn't ask if it was you, it asks you who was
driving and that is what you needed to tell them.
If all you said was that it wasn't you driving you appear to
have committed the offence of failing to furnish driver's
details. You have to either ID the driver or (summarising) give
them information that would help identify the driver (even if
that is 'it wasn't my car, my car was on the drive under my
control at the time' as an example).
Perhaps tell us what you meant/should have said and see if we
can help you dig yourself out of the hole you are now in.
Could it have been your car there? (the road name you seem to
think it was) at any time.?
If so who could have been driving?
Or do you think they misidentified the car?
#Post#: 31154--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP -
Summons to court
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: July 25, 2024, 9:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: moonshine23 link ---
>
> I received a SJP bundle saying I had two offences. One being
the original offence of speeding and another being failure to
respond. In the bundle, the paperwork evidence shows a timestamp
of another date and time (17/11/23 at 2:30) with a PC statement
saying the car was caught with a camera but the officer was
assisting elsewhere and unable to stop the vehicle.
>
> I've been summoned to court after responding not guilty and
declaring that the NIP and SJP bundle are two separate dates -
neither of which are me.
--- End Quote ---
There is no offence of "failing to respond", and you have told
us categorically that you did respond.
Neither the NIP nor the SJPN are dates, let alone separate
dates. The NIP will have an issue date and an offence date. The
SJPN bundle will consist of numerous relevant documents with
numerous potentially relevant dates.
If you want people to give up their free time to try to help you
with your problem, I would strongly suggest providing all the
relevant information, ideally in date order.
What exactly did you say in your s. 172 response?
What do the witness statements say about documents being sent
and received?
Is there a copy of the NIP in the bundle?
Was the car parked at your address or your daughter's, at the
time and the specified in the NIP and at the "new" time and
date?
#Post#: 31167--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP -
Summons to court
DIR By: moonshine23
Date: July 25, 2024, 11:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Sorry i will try and be more clear. In response to the
questions:
What exactly did you say in your s. 172 response?
I said that the car was parked on the driveway at the offence
time and how my daughter left the house that day only to attend
a doctors apt in the afternoon which is the only recording
available on the camera. I asked the camera enforcement team to
check ANPR footage from the time of the incident to see that my
car was no where near that area at that time. I mentioned that
my daughter is the user of the car and has confirmed she didn't
drive or be in that area where the offence took place.
What do the witness statements say about documents being sent
and received?
Witness statement from the admin says no response received
despite me sending one and emailing also. The PC statement says
that the vehicle was caught with TruCam and not stopped as he
was busy with another vehicle.
Is there a copy of the NIP in the bundle?
Yes there is, the date on the NIP offence and the date on the
timestamp evidence are different.
Was the car parked at your address or your daughter's, at the
time and the specified in the NIP and at the "new" time and
date?
Both times parked at daughters as she is the main user. I am
only the registered keeper as I bought the car for her.
#Post#: 31169--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP -
Summons to court
DIR By: moonshine23
Date: July 25, 2024, 11:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: The Rookie link ---
>
> So the incorrect road name is now irrelevant it would seem
(and probably never would have helped anyway if the road it
referred to was 'obvious').
>
> The S172 request didn't ask if it was you, it asks you who was
driving and that is what you needed to tell them.
>
> If all you said was that it wasn't you driving you appear to
have committed the offence of failing to furnish driver's
details. You have to either ID the driver or (summarising) give
them information that would help identify the driver (even if
that is 'it wasn't my car, my car was on the drive under my
control at the time' as an example).
>
> Perhaps tell us what you meant/should have said and see if we
can help you dig yourself out of the hole you are now in.
>
> Could it have been your car there? (the road name you seem to
think it was) at any time.?
> If so who could have been driving?
> Or do you think they misidentified the car?
>
--- End Quote ---
I did explain in my response that I couldn't identify the driver
as my car was on the driveway of my daughters house at the time
of the alleged offence and she hadn't drove. I thought it must
be a clerical error until the SJP paperwork received months
later showed the reg on a vehicle. I am still unable to identify
the driver as I have no idea who it is
#Post#: 31173--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP -
Summons to court
DIR By: Gilan02
Date: July 25, 2024, 11:23 am
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Did you give them your daughter's details?
#Post#: 31174--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP -
Summons to court
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: July 25, 2024, 11:32 am
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So, just to be clear, as well as getting the time and date wrong
in the NIP (and incorporated s. 172 requirement), the vehicle
was parked up and not being driven at the revised time - meaning
that either it was a different car (misread or cloned plate) or
they got the time/date wrong twice?
Are there any photos of the offence included in the bundle?
#Post#: 31175--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP -
Summons to court
DIR By: Irksome
Date: July 25, 2024, 11:35 am
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Your daughter was effectively the keeper. You should have
nominated her.
I hope you are not suggesting you've been 'fronting' = your
account looks dangerously like that might be what has been
occurring. You don't seem to have any reason for being the
registered keeper at all?
Your email response is potentially your get out here - you
cannot be found guilty of the speeding offence as no driver
nomination was made (apparently); so it falls to the Failure to
Provide charge, and what you wrote in the email is going to be
of key importance and whether you can prove it was delivered
(the same applies to your written response, but it appears that
was not received).
#Post#: 31181--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP -
Summons to court
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: July 25, 2024, 12:25 pm
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I was once prosecuted for an alleged s. 172 offence, where the
police did not like my response. The witness statement stated
that no response had been received as the tubby had clicked the
wrong box (the other box was "no acceptable response has been
received"). Beyond that, when cross examined, the tubby then
lost the ability to understand any awkward questions in English,
but that's by the by.
If the required/relevant information has been provided by email,
and received/responded to by a relevant person then I would
suggest that that would satisfy the substance of the
requirement. Where the s. 172 response constitutes a confession
to being the driver, it needs to be in writing and signed by the
accused to be admissible - and in such cases failure to respond
in writing or sign the response has been held by the Divisional
Court to constitute a failure to comply with a lawfully made
reasonable [necessary] requirement as to the manner.
#Post#: 31204--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP -
Summons to court
DIR By: moonshine23
Date: July 25, 2024, 1:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: andy_foster link ---
>
> So, just to be clear, as well as getting the time and date
wrong in the NIP (and incorporated s. 172 requirement), the
vehicle was parked up and not being driven at the revised time -
meaning that either it was a different car (misread or cloned
plate) or they got the time/date wrong twice?
>
> Are there any photos of the offence included in the bundle?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes the bundle has a timestamped picture of the reg. The vehicle
was parked up at this time.
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