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#Post#: 30979--------------------------------------------------
NIP for going through no entry - But signs are barely visible.
HELP!?!
DIR By: Br1stol
Date: July 24, 2024, 9:32 am
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Hello good folk of FTLA, I hope you might share you expertise
with me on this one.
This morning I was issued with a yellow ticket and a verbal
Notice of Intended Prosecution by two uniformed Police officers
for entering into a timed No-Entry road in a residential street
in Bristol. I am not local to that area so was unaware of this
rule and I also didn't see the signs - but of course these were
not good enough reasons to mitigate me from the offence and so a
traffic offence report was given to me on the spot.
After been held up for far too long and having now missed my
interview :'( I began heading home - but first decided to
double back and check for the road signage as I could not recall
seeing even one sign stating no right turn. I found that of the
two No-Entry signs at the gateway to the road in question, one
is at a 90 degree angle so impossible to see and the other is
roughly at 45 degrees so although visible, isn't clear. Neither
of the written signs (Mon-Fri 7am-10am) are visible from the
approach I was coming from either.
Which leads me to wonder if I have a case to argue?
Here are the visuals:
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/JztGGPY4/IMG-4423.jpg
The map from above - I was travelling from the bottom of the
image (6 o'clock) and turned right into Cambridge St where the
police were waiting tucked around the corner. Of course...
[img]
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/L4fks6Y0/IMG-4420.avif[/img]
My view as I approached the Cambridge Rd junction. Notice the
lamppost dead-ahead has the No-Entry sign facing at a 90 degree
angle from this approach - so impossible to see.
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/rFZpX5y6/IMG-4421.png
The same viewpoint taken from Google Maps shows it a little more
clearly as you can see the shadow cast onto he wall of the house
from the sign. It also shows that the sign has been like this
for at least 3 years...
[img]
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/5y36FGMj/IMG-4416.avif[/img]
As a comparison, if I had been coming from the left hand side (9
o'clock) I would have seen this view, which is undeniably clear
- both the No-Entry signs are completely visible as well as the
written timings.
[img]
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/FRvrgZpS/IMG-4414.avif[/img]
Is this a clear enough gateway? Perhaps I should have seen the
drivers side No-entry sign, but as I was checking for traffic
coming from the left, and then the right, and then making the
turn, I simply didn't see it.
It would be great to hear your thoughts on this one. Im sure
I'll receive follow up correspondence from the Police fairly
soon and am keen to know what the punishment is likely to be -
points and a fine perhaps? I am also unsure if I will 1) be
offered the chance to dispute it, and 2) if I stand a chance of
winning - or will I just dig myself into a nice expensive legal
headache of a hole?!
#Post#: 30988--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP for going through no entry - But signs are barely
visible. HELP!?!
DIR By: 666
Date: July 24, 2024, 10:52 am
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TLDR
Apart from the signs, it is very obvious from the photos that
the give-way lines (double broken white lines) extend across the
whole width of the road, indicating that it is a one-way street
in the direction towards the junction.
#Post#: 31007--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP for going through no entry - But signs are barely
visible. HELP!?!
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: July 24, 2024, 12:12 pm
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--- Quote from: 666 link ---
>
> Apart from the signs, it is very obvious from the photos that
the give-way lines (double broken white lines) extend across the
whole width of the road, indicating that it is a one-way street
in the direction towards the junction.
>
--- End Quote ---
But it isn't, is it? There are parked vehicles facing away from
the junction (presumably driven there outside the restricted
hours) and it seems perfectly acceptable to enter that road
outside those hours. I must say it's a bit of an odd
arrangement, but I imagine there is a reason for it.
--- Quote ---
> unsure if I will 1) be offered the chance to dispute it,
--- End Quote ---
You can always dispute it by declining any out-of-court
solutions the police offer and pleading not guilty in court
--- Quote ---
> and 2) if I stand a chance of winning -
--- End Quote ---
I think not. In your last photo the No Entry sign on the right
(above the "Oxford Street" sign) is quite visible. The
restricted hours plate does not seem to be, but in its absence
you should assume the No Entry is operative 24/7. Being
convicted of this in court following a not guilty plea is likely
to cost you something in the order of £1k. I'm not sure I'd be
prepared to risk that.
#Post#: 31013--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP for going through no entry - But signs are barely
visible. HELP!?!
DIR By: Br1stol
Date: July 24, 2024, 12:45 pm
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Thanks Newjudge, appreciate that.
Not exactly what I hoped to hear but also not a surprise either.
I guess my come back would be that you don’t actually get to see
the no-entry sign above the street sign full until the very last
minute before turning - and by that time you’re already checking
left and right for oncoming cars, not looking to your immediate
right and upwards.
I’d probably take your advice and not question it tbh as the
stress of court stuff alone outweighs £1k. But I’m still not
happy that this is a sound junction. You simply cannot see the
instruction that you shouldn’t turn right until the very last
minute - and is this even a valid ‘gateway’ if you only pass one
(visible) no entry sign?
#Post#: 31016--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP for going through no entry - But signs are barely
visible. HELP!?!
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: July 24, 2024, 1:24 pm
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I tend to agree from what you've posted. The restriction does
not seem to be very well conveyed. You will want the court to
find that it was not "adequately conveyed" and I'm no too sure
hey will find that.
See if you get any other responses.
#Post#: 31088--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP for going through no entry - But signs are barely
visible. HELP!?!
DIR By: BertB
Date: July 25, 2024, 4:27 am
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--- Quote from: Br1stol link ---
>
> I guess my come back would be that you don’t actually get to
see the no-entry sign above the street sign full until the very
last minute before turning
>
--- End Quote ---
The problem is, as a defence you would need to demonstrate this
and from your street view pictures posted where we can all
clearly see a no entry sign on the lamp post, along with the
road markings at the entrance, that is going to take some doing.
It would be cheaper to take the hit, learn from it and move on.
#Post#: 31210--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP for going through no entry - But signs are barely
visible. HELP!?!
DIR By: Bayonet
Date: July 25, 2024, 2:01 pm
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Does it matter that you can't have time plates paired with a No
Entry sign?
#Post#: 31218--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP for going through no entry - But signs are barely
visible. HELP!?!
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: July 25, 2024, 2:55 pm
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Yebbut they ran out of low flying motorbike signs...
But seriously, it depends whether the offence is an s. 36
offence (failing to comply with a direction given by a
prescribed sign) - in which case, absent special needs
permission from the SoS, no prescribed sign means no offence, or
whether the offence is breaching the underlying Order, which
merely needs to be adequately conveyed.
#Post#: 31371--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP for going through no entry - But signs are barely
visible. HELP!?!
DIR By: Br1stol
Date: July 27, 2024, 6:55 am
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--- Quote ---
> The problem is, as a defence you would need to demonstrate
this and from your street view pictures posted where we can all
clearly see a no entry sign on the lamp post, along with the
road markings at the entrance, that is going to take some doing.
It would be cheaper to take the hit, learn from it and move on.
>
--- End Quote ---
Cheers Bertie. I think this is probably what I’ll have to do
unfortunately, I’m not up for throwing good money after bad and
giving myself court case anxiety in the meantime.
That said I’m still frustrated at this situation. Yes the one
sign is visible but it is at a 45 degree angle so not clear
until you are much closer. I certainly didn’t see it. And the
other sign is impossible to see unless you approach from the
other angle, meaning you only really get to see what the
instructions are when you’re pretty much on the junction.
I wonder if both signs need to be visible for the entrance of a
gateway to be valid?
#Post#: 31373--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP for going through no entry - But signs are barely
visible. HELP!?!
DIR By: Br1stol
Date: July 27, 2024, 7:05 am
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--- Quote from: Bayonet link ---
>
> Does it matter that you can't have time plates paired with a
No Entry sign?
>
--- End Quote ---
Is this true? Would this allow a challenge on technical terms,
even though it’s not my actual complaint?
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