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#Post#: 30600--------------------------------------------------
Charge on credit card without consent
DIR By: thechosenone
Date: July 21, 2024, 12:12 pm
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Hello,
The events are in England, I am an American with an American
credit card.
I took a rental car at a rental company in Heathrow airport.
The rental agreement does say (in some addendum sent by
email...): "an administration fee of up to £45 in the UK and up
to €35 in Ireland for processing any fines or offences against
the Vehicle, Owner, Renter, any Authorised Driver or any other
person Renter permitted to use the Vehicle during the Rental
Period, unless caused through Owner’s own fault;".
I stayed at a hotel in Cambridge for a few days, parking there
the rental car.
I returned the rental car to the rental company and left England
for the USA.
Some time after my stay, the hotel parking administrator issued
me two parking violations for not paying for parking for two
days.
Some time after I reached back home in the USA, I got an email
from the rental company saying the following ...
The rental car company:
1. "processed" the citation, which means they sent the parking
lot operator my information, and the citation to me by email.
2. they did *not* pay the fine. They explicitly told me that I
will be paying the fine separately.
3. they went ahead and charged my credit card 35 pounds per
ticket for processing - without getting my consent beforehand.
Next, the hotel administrator canceled the two citations - they
were issued by mistake ...
So my questions are :
1. Does the agreement note/text above give the rental company
authorization to charge my credit card without prior
notification to me, giving me a chance to object?
[I would think that not - that opens the possibility for two
rogue companies to conspire on issuing false charges with the
intent of charging processing fees even if the parking bill
itself is later on canceled]
2. Does the rental company providing the parking lot
administrator my information + sending me an email with the
details of the citation count as "processing", thus justifying
a 35 pounds charge (per ticket) ?
[I would think that "processing" means actual payment, not just
sending two emails, cause then there is the risk I won't pay the
rental company back for the fine they payed already]
3. Does a private parking lot company claim that I owe them
money count as a "fines or offences against the Vehicle, Owner,
Renter" ?
[I would think that a fine is issued by a government entity ; a
private company does not issue fines but only a bill ... I would
think]
Thank you for your time taken to read and answer my questions.
Best,
Guy
#Post#: 30602--------------------------------------------------
Re: Charge on credit card without consent
DIR By: b789
Date: July 21, 2024, 1:49 pm
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You are correct in your assumptions. No "fine" was issued. A
speculative invoice from an unregulated private parking company
was sent to the keeper (the hire company) for an alleged breach
of contract with the unknown driver.
The Fire company then transferred liability from themselves to
the Hirer (you). The private parking company (PPC) still has no
idea who the unknown driver is. They only know that you are the
known Hirer. Unfortunately for us here in England and Wales (and
soon in Scotland), there is a law that allows the PPC to
transfer liability from the unknown driver to the known keeper
or known Hirer.
This law is known as the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA).
However, for the PPC to be able to transfer that liability, they
must fully comply with all the requirements of PoFA. In
99.99999% of cases involving hire or lease vehicles, they fail
to fully comply and so cannot rely on PoFA to transfer the
liability to the Hirer. They only way they would know the
identity of the unknown driver is if the known Hirer told them.
There is no legal obligation, whatsoever, for the known Hirer to
identify the unknown driver.
So, the PPC has nowhere to go. Normally an appeal is rejected
but the secondary appeal is usually upheld. Even if it wasn't
the PPC would never allow it get in front of a judge if ti went
to county court as a debt claim. They would be spanked by a
judge. They simply hope that the Hirer is low-hanging fruit on
the gullible tree and pays up.
In this case, you say "Next, the hotel administrator canceled
the two citations - they were issued by mistake ...". I don't
think that is quite right. The hotel could ask their agent, the
PPC to cancel the PCN (citation in your Americanise) and it
seems likely they did as they knew they would have no hope of
getting you to pay them if you were not low-hanging fruit.
The problem now is that the Hire company has charged you their
admin fee which they are not entitle to do based on the
agreement you have with them if it only states ""fines or
offences against the Vehicle, Owner, Renter". The driver
committed no "offence" and received no "fine". As stated, the
keeper was simply invoiced by a private company. A PPC is in no
way, shape or form an "authority" that can issue fines or
penalties. They are simply ex-clamper thugs out to scam as many
unsuspecting low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree into paying
them.
My advice is to dispute the fee with your credit card company
and get them to chargeback the fee. Nothing will come of it and
you will have defeated the mugs who were out to either scam you
or wrongly charge you for something that you were not liable for
because they failed to write their agreement properly.
#Post#: 30605--------------------------------------------------
Re: Charge on credit card without consent
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: July 21, 2024, 2:48 pm
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I disagree.
3. As regards the distinction between the terms fines, traffic
violations, offences and parking charges, IMO don't nit-pick or,
in the paraphrased words of Sir Thomas Bingham, Master of the
Rolls, 'on a straightforward down-to-earth reading of [the
contract term] without legalism or exegetical sophistication”
the context is designed to cater for your event and is an
enforceable contract condition.
But there are other views!
#Post#: 30606--------------------------------------------------
Re: Charge on credit card without consent
DIR By: slapdash
Date: July 21, 2024, 3:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Many hire companies have widened the terms to include the word
"charges" to attempt to bring private tickets into scope.
There is, perhaps, a consumer rights argument. It may be an
unfair term if it is not refunded where a charge is cancelled.
I have had hire agreements with:-
- Refunded if charge cancelled (fairly common)
- Explicitly not refunded
- Silent
A reasonable interpretation of the latter may be that the term
only applies to valid charges.
#Post#: 30610--------------------------------------------------
Re: Charge on credit card without consent
DIR By: The Rookie
Date: July 21, 2024, 3:51 pm
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--- Quote from: slapdash link ---
>
> It may be an unfair term if it is not refunded where a charge
is cancelled.
>
--- End Quote ---
If the sun demanded was genuinely a pre estimate of the actual
cost of the admin then I don’t think a court would support that
view, after all why should the hire co. bear that as they have
done nothing wrong.
#Post#: 30624--------------------------------------------------
Re: Charge on credit card without consent
DIR By: b789
Date: July 21, 2024, 6:42 pm
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How is this ever going to court? The OP is an American living
outside the UK. There will be no jurisdiction for any English
court. The Hire company can dispute the chargeback and plead its
case. However, suggesting that an English court may decide this
issue is simply a non starter.
The Op should dispute the admin charge and let the credit card
company argue it out with the Hire company.
#Post#: 30628--------------------------------------------------
Re: Charge on credit card without consent
DIR By: thechosenone
Date: July 21, 2024, 9:47 pm
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Thank you all for your time and inputs, highly appreciated!
By the rental agreement I was the only one authorized to drive
the car, so I don't know if I can claim that the driver is
unknown by me ...
The parking lot serves only this hotel and the hotel immediately
told me they will take care to cancel the bills.
I took the numerous advice and sent them this email below .... I
will report back what they say.
If that does not work, then I will dispute with the credit card
company (the CC company expects at least such an attempt before
disputing).
Thank you again !
====================
Here's the email:
Dear Enterprise Service,
I have received 2 emails such as the one attached below for
which you have charged my credit card £70. Please refund these
charges asap.
Indeed the agreement does state that "an administration fee of
up to £45 in the UK and up to €35 in Ireland for processing any
fines or offences against the Vehicle, Owner, Renter, any
Authorised Driver or any other person Renter permitted to use
the Vehicle during the Rental Period, unless caused through
Owner’s own fault;".
This statement was not present in the Rules and Restrictions
document presented to me when making the rental car reservation.
It was only presented to me verbally while picking up the car
and as an addendum to an email I received while / after picking
up the car. Not sure if this is legal, but it is definitely not
honest.
Regardless:
1. You have simply received an invoice by a private company.
This private company is in no shape or form an authority that
can issue fines or penalties.
2. The two bills by the parking company associated to the
Holiday Inn hotel in Cambridge I was staying in have been
cancelled by request of the hotel as they were issued by their
mistake. You may review the attached email from the hotel
confirming that. Hence, the driver committed no "offence" and
received no "fine".
3. The agreement does not grant you the permission to charge my
credit card without my consent. You should have first received
my consent to such charge prior to any charge. Since I did not
issue such a consent, the credit card charge you issued on my
credit card is illegal.
Please refund the amount you have charged my credit card.
Best regards,
Guy
#Post#: 30630--------------------------------------------------
Re: Charge on credit card without consent
DIR By: b789
Date: July 22, 2024, 12:13 am
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--- Quote from: thechosenone link ---
>
> By the rental agreement I was the only one authorized to drive
the car, so I don't know if I can claim that the driver is
unknown by me ...
>
--- End Quote ---
You are not claiming that the driver is unknown to you. The Hire
Company does not know you were the driver. They cannot prove you
were the person who drove the car onto the private land. All
they can do is provide the PPC evidence you were the Hirer at
the time of the alleged breach of contract.
The PPC does not know you were the driver. They are not allowed
to presume nor infer that you were the driver just because you
happen to be the Hirer. The driver and the Hirer/keeper are two
separate entities in civil law. There is plenty of persuasive
precedent to validate that point in law.
There is no legal obligation for the Hirer to identify the
driver in civil law. Unlike in criminal law, where the Hirer
could be required to identify the driver, it is not the case
here.
Anyway, this is all academic as the Parking Charge Notices (PCN)
have been cancelled. All this argument about who is and who is
not liable for the alleged breach of contract does not matter
anymore. It is only an argument if it was being appealed or if
the Hirer were being sued for the alleged debt in county court.
This is now a contractual dispute over the hire agreement. It is
betond our remit except for the fact that we fancy ourselves to
be somewhat knowledgable in matters of contract law without the
required qualifications of being actual lawyers.
I’m pretty sure that Enterprise Car Hire is a member of the
BVRLA and that ATA has guidelines for its members that they are
expected to abide by. One of their guidelines is about
differentiating between penalties and fines for traffic offences
which are criminal matters (although many of the offences are
de-criminalised) which, if they ever got to court would be dealt
with by a magistrate and any fines imposed would go to the
public purse and Parking Charges which are simply civil matters
involving contract law and are nothing to do with authorities of
any kind as they are simply invoices issued for alleged breach
of contract by unregulated private companies.
Unless the hire agreement differentiates between “offences” that
incur “penalties” and/or “fines” or “charges” from unregulated
private companies, then you have an argument as to whether the
agreement allows the hire company to charge you an admin fee.
So, the issue about not revealing the drivers identity is now
moot in this case. Good luck with your dispute over the admin
charge but feel free to let us know how you get on.
#Post#: 30631--------------------------------------------------
Re: Charge on credit card without consent
DIR By: The Rookie
Date: July 22, 2024, 12:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> How is this ever going to court?
>
--- End Quote ---
The only place you could argue an unfair term is in court…
The chargeback may well succeed on the basis of the wording in
the contract, but I was referring to the argument about an
unfair term of the charge is cancelled.
#Post#: 30632--------------------------------------------------
Re: Charge on credit card without consent
DIR By: b789
Date: July 22, 2024, 1:05 am
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I understand your point. However, in this case, how, or where
could this claimant sue a US citizen who resides in the USA?
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