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#Post#: 1979--------------------------------------------------
Redbridge - Cambridge Park - 31J Entering and stopping in a box
junction when prohibited
DIR By: Glitch
Date: July 26, 2023, 9:11 am
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Started this one on Pepipoo for a friend.
HTML https://i.ibb.co/D8XbZML/Document-2023-07-24-203108.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/SV9dy7T/Document-2023-07-24-203150-2.jpg
GSV Blake Hall Road
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.573522,0.0235395,3a,75y,343.66h,85.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syE1j47ucwKrnTQ9e7bDz0g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Cutting long story short and due to time constraints this is the
reps submitted on 25th July.
Key points are vague location 'Cambridge Park' and box extends
outside the confines of the 'junction'
Credit to Mr Chips for crafting it.
--- Quote ---
> I submit representations against this PCN on the following
grounds.
>
> A PCN is required to state the grounds on which the authority
believes a charge is payable, and this has been held to require
not only the nature of the alleged contravention but also the
location where the allegation is said to have taken place. The
location of the contravention simply states "Cambridge Park",
but there are several road junctions along Cambridge Park and it
is not possible to determine from the PCN where exactly the
contravention is said to have occurred.
>
> Further, from looking at the video footage supplied it is
clear that the markings of the box junction extend far beyond
the junction with the road from where my vehicle is seen
turning. Under the TSRGD 2016, a box junction means an area of
the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is
at a junction between two or more roads.
>
> By inspection, it is clear the point my vehicle came to rest
is beyond the natural confines of the junction. This view was
shared by adjudicator Andrew Harman in case 2230267259 (taken
from London Tribunals statutory register).
>
> In my case, this is further supported by the fact the car in
front (behind which my vehicle stops) has long since completed
its right turn (if it hadn't I also would not be committing a
contravention as I would have entered the box junction for the
purpose of turning right and would have been waiting in the box
behind a vehicle waiting to complete a right turn out of the
box).
>
> The following image from google maps taken from the spot where
my vehicle stops further illustrates this point:
>
> GSV from point vehicle stopped
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5739673,0.0234961,3a,75y,201.3h,94.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swS4WTuueyApS2cEFMQB8bw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
>
> For both these reasons, it follows that the PCN should not be
enforced and must be cancelled.
>
> Yours faithfully,
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 2029--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge - Cambridge Park - 31J Entering and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 27, 2023, 5:05 pm
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Video:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx91zKd6HIw
Let us know when you get a response.
#Post#: 2821--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge - Cambridge Park - 31J Entering and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited
DIR By: Glitch
Date: August 7, 2023, 8:32 am
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I can see online that the reps were rejected. It's offering the
discount.
I need to get hold of the rejection letter to see why they've
rejected. Nice little earner for Redbridge based on other recent
posts.
It is a problem junction, mainly for cars turning right from
Cambridge Park into Blake Hall Road.
#Post#: 2852--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge - Cambridge Park - 31J Entering and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 7, 2023, 2:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
They might be able to email you a copy of the rejection, most
councils will do this if asked.
#Post#: 3079--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge - Cambridge Park - 31J Entering and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited
DIR By: Glitch
Date: August 11, 2023, 6:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Got the anticipated rejection.
They have not addressed the vague location challenge - failure
to consider?
Sides of the box at right angles to the flow of traffic?? What
are they talking about??
They have not addressed the grounds that the box extends beyond
the junction - is that another failure to consider?
HTML https://i.ibb.co/1ntX1FP/LBR-rejection-letter-20230811.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/ZJpg5qF
HTML https://i.ibb.co/phsVCBT/LBR-REjection-Letter-20230811-2.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/VwhnXcG
#Post#: 3094--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge - Cambridge Park - 31J Entering and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: August 11, 2023, 10:57 am
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The box still extends beyond the perimeter of the junction so
what are they talking about, particularly as TSRGD 2016 has
little to nothing to do with the design of a box other than
setting out those perimeters
#Post#: 3097--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge - Cambridge Park - 31J Entering and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited
DIR By: guest179
Date: August 11, 2023, 11:31 am
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OP, the choice is yours as to whether to take the discount or
appeal.
IMO, your strongest grounds are wrapped up in the issue of the
box not being at a junction:
1. You came to a stop within the markings only because they
extend too far;
2. The extent of the markings is not apparent from your approach
because the stop line for cars at the traffic lights in Blake
Hall Road has been set back to accommodate a 'cycles only' box
and shrubbery obscures the extent of the markings. It is
reasonable for a motorist to presume that the markings would
comply with regulations and not extend beyond the limits of the
junction which taking even the most generous position would
equate to an extension of the back line of the footway in BHR
and not as here for a further 50ft.
Some thoughts should you decide to continue.
#Post#: 3162--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge - Cambridge Park - 31J Entering and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited
DIR By: Glitch
Date: August 13, 2023, 4:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the response.
Before I take it up with the driver is there any mileage in
'failure to consider'?
They've ignored the grounds of vague location. Cambridge Park is
767m long.
They've not answered the challenge that the box is outside the
junction.
Are there any recent examples in any YBJ appeals where these
grounds have succeeded?
#Post#: 3329--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge - Cambridge Park - 31J Entering and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 15, 2023, 5:31 pm
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There is definitely a failure to consider on vague locus, and
importantly it's a complete failure to consider so it meets the
threshold of Halton Borough Council, R (On the Application Of) v
Road User Charging Adjudicators [2023] EWHC 303 (Admin).
As above, your choice is fundamentally to either take the
discount, or pursue an appeal.
What I will add is that Redbridge seems to be struggling to put
evidence packs together at the moment, it might be that they're
short staffed. If there's no evidence pack from the council, you
win by default as there would be no evidence of any
contravention.
Let us know what you decide to do.
#Post#: 3341--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge - Cambridge Park - 31J Entering and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited
DIR By: Glitch
Date: August 16, 2023, 2:44 am
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--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> There is definitely a failure to consider on vague locus, and
importantly it's a complete failure to consider so it meets the
threshold of Halton Borough Council, R (On the Application Of) v
Road User Charging Adjudicators [2023] EWHC 303 (Admin).
>
> As above, your choice is fundamentally to either take the
discount, or pursue an appeal.
>
> What I will add is that Redbridge seems to be struggling to
put evidence packs together at the moment, it might be that
they're short staffed. If there's no evidence pack from the
council, you win by default as there would be no evidence of any
contravention.
>
> Let us know what you decide to do.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks!
I assume this is the relevant part of the Halton case:
--- Quote ---
> 4. The judge rejected this argument, concluding that, on the
true construction of the Regulations, the concept of “procedural
impropriety” included matters that occurred after the filing of
Representations under regulation 8(9); and so could constitute a
ground upon which an adjudicator could allow an appeal under
regulation 11(6) ([37]-[39]). As an alternative route, he also
concluded that a failure by the Council to observe the
regulation 8(9) duty to consider Representations would in any
event constitute a ground of appeal under regulation 8(3)(e)
because, under the Regulations, that failure to consider the
Representations as required would have the prescribed
consequence that the Representations would be deemed to have
been accepted (“if it can clearly be shown that there was no
consideration of the duly-made representations…” [40(ii)] and
see 8(i) below).
--- End Quote ---
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