DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 29762--------------------------------------------------
Leeds City Council code 27 Parked adjacent to a dropped footway,
West Street, Morley, Leeds
DIR By: mikejr
Date: July 13, 2024, 8:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Good afternoon,
Earlier this week I received the following PCN.
I'm struggling to see where the contravention even occurred
especially given this particular lowered footway is not for
providing vehicular access and no part of my car was near even
the sloped part of the kerb let alone the dropped section
itself?
Usually I would park on the opposite side of the road fully on
the carriageway outside my flat but occasionally have to park
here if there's no parking available, and park it as far forward
as possible (hence it being close to the dropped footway) so
it's in sight from my closest window as I've had two cars stolen
from my road.
I parked it here when I got back late the other night and use
the sloped footway to reverse onto that part of the road and
assumed there was sufficient clearance; at the time I wasn't
thinking about the parking warden's apparent pedantry!
I actually measured the height above the road of that part of
the kerb over which the bumper was hanging and it was very
marginal with regards to it being a 'dropped' kerb.
This morning I saw a car round here which had been in an
accident parked (admittedly awkwardly), also with a PCN on the
windscreen which I'm sure the owner will be doubly chuffed
about, so the wardens round here are clearly very averse to the
use of sensible discretion...
I will begrudgingly pay this if I'm in breach of any regulations
(and naively hope it might go towards fixing some of the
crater-like potholes around Leeds that almost constitute dropped
kerbs themselves), but what does 'adjacent to a dropped footway'
actually mean?
If there is any potential appeal case, what legislation should I
refer to?
Google Street View:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/qhsoAEJrg66LEWDF6<br
/>(notice the silver Corsa... one has to wonder why if it's such
a
problem no restriction lines have been painted...)
HTML https://i.imgur.com/gI2qJSr.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/NhSmBxB.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Z8JjMnE.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/NBoQQ6R.jpeg
Many thanks in advance for all your help! :)
Mike.
#Post#: 29777--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council code 27 Parked adjacent to a dropped
footway, West Street, Morley, Leeds
DIR By: Phantomcrusader
Date: July 13, 2024, 10:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The PCN states the time period for making payment that was given
under the revoked 2007 regs
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3483/schedule/made<br
/>which is:
“the penalty charge must be paid not later than the last day of
the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the
penalty charge notice was served.”
The current 2022 regs
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2
has
different wording.
“the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days
beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention
occurred.”
In the case of Barnet Council v the Parking Adjudicator in the
high court, the judge emphasised that the contravention date may
not always be the same as the date the notice is served. The
example he gave was where a contravention occurred shortly
before midnight but the PCN is not served until after midnight.
Considering this, is not reasonable to argue that the PCN is
invalid as it does not correctly state that the 28 day period
for making payment begins with the date of the contravention?
Sure in most cases the dates will be the same but the judge’s
observation can be used to show that it may not always be the
same and therefore it’s important the PCN follows the payment
period set by regulations.
#Post#: 29783--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council code 27 Parked adjacent to a dropped
footway, West Street, Morley, Leeds
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: July 13, 2024, 11:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It is a DK for pedestrians see
HTML https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7416321,-1.5994492,3a,57.8y,303.55h,54.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shMZ2se5bhDAq1uyHyrZhEA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu
and you were over the sloping kerb. But the sloping kerb does
not count as many adjudicators have found and to me this is your
argument
#Post#: 29788--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council code 27 Parked adjacent to a dropped
footway, West Street, Morley, Leeds
DIR By: mikejr
Date: July 13, 2024, 12:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the reply.
Sure - I acknowledge that this can be used by pedestrians also
but fail to see how I was impeding on pedestrian/wheelchairs
etc. ability to use the dropped kerb.
While you say I was over the sloped section I disagree - at best
it's only very slightly over it. The photos make it difficult to
see but I believe I was quite literally at the very end of the
section of sloped kerb, and this warden is nit-picking.
Nevertheless how should I go about making my case for the
adjudicator as you describe? Is there any case law?
#Post#: 29805--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council code 27 Parked adjacent to a dropped
footway, West Street, Morley, Leeds
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 13, 2024, 6:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Nevertheless how should I go about making my case for the
adjudicator as you describe? Is there any case law
--- End Quote ---
Appealing to the adjudicators, (in your case the Traffic Penalty
Tribunal), is the last stage of the enforcement process. You
can only appeal to them if you have had representations to the
council refused. There are two stages of submitting
representations to the council, (1) an informal challenge
against the PCN and (2) formal representations against the
Notice to Owner, this is sent to the vehicle owner when either
no payment has been received for a PCN, or and informal
challenge has been rejected, and no payment made.
We always recommend OPs (original posters) submit an informal
challenge first. This gives time for investigations to be made
concerning the alleged contravention.
As for "case law", the process is under the civil law, and there
is no "case law" as made in a court of record, but each
tribunal, (London has its own, BTW), must keep a Statutory
Register, but each case turns on its own circumstances. An
appellant can cite other cases similar to his own that have won,
but it is not case law, therefore it can be ignored by an
adjudicator. In addition, only the London Tribunals register can
be searched, the one at TPT is not available for searching
on-line.
Anyway, with the above out of the way, your case looks as it it
should win at adjudication, because none of your car is over the
dropped section, and only intruding into the sloped section by a
few inches. The contravention is stated on the PCN - "parked
adjacent to a dropped footway". The statute is "lowered to meet
the level of the carriageway". Lots of councils argue blind that
the sloping section is part of the dropped footway, but
adjudications over the years show that adjudicators don't agree
with them. However, as most people just cough-up when
representations are rejected by councils, it is difficult to
really determine how common this sort of thing is.
Anyway, best now for you to submit an informal challenge on
something like the following lines: -
Dear Sirs
Re PCN <PCN Number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy) served at <hh.mm> at West
Street
I deny responsibility for the PCN penalty above on the grounds
that the contravention did not occur.
The photographs taken by your CEO show that the car is not
intruding into the dropped section.
Please therefore cancel the PCN forthwith.
Yours faithfully
Post up their resp;onse when you get it. Don't be shocked if all
you get is a Fob-Off letter of refusal. Councils ruthlessly game
the system to maximise their income, and it works, because most
peope then cough-up.
#Post#: 29832--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council code 27 Parked adjacent to a dropped
footway, West Street, Morley, Leeds
DIR By: mikejr
Date: July 14, 2024, 11:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Incandescent,
Many thanks indeed for the above.
It is eye opening indeed! No wonder people train for years to
get accustomed with all the idiosyncrasies of the legal system!
I have submitted the appeal using your wording.
I'm doubtful it will be that easy as you say but I'm more than
happy to respond to pettiness with more pettiness!
I will let you know of the response.
Many thanks again for your time.
Best wishes,
Mike.
#Post#: 31311--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council code 27 Parked adjacent to a dropped
footway, West Street, Morley, Leeds
DIR By: mikejr
Date: July 26, 2024, 1:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Update on the above: ticket cancelled! Although it was slightly
ambiguous they seemed to agree it wasn't on a dropped kerb.
Imagine if it was always that easy...
Thanks for the help again 🙂
#Post#: 31346--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council code 27 Parked adjacent to a dropped
footway, West Street, Morley, Leeds
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 26, 2024, 5:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: mikejr link ---
>
> Update on the above: ticket cancelled! Although it was
slightly ambiguous they seemed to agree it wasn't on a dropped
kerb. Imagine if it was always that easy...
>
> Thanks for the help again 🙂
>
--- End Quote ---
Very well done indeed ! It's very seldom we see a council give
way on receipt of an informal challenge.
#Post#: 31670--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council code 27 Parked adjacent to a dropped
footway, West Street, Morley, Leeds
DIR By: mikejr
Date: July 30, 2024, 4:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Well, if nothing else, it goes to show it is possible!
Thanks once again for your help. A small burden was lifted. :)
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 1