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#Post#: 3155--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: gumph69
Date: August 12, 2023, 4:14 pm
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If there is a reasonable chance of having the PCN cancelled, I
can fight on. Obviously, I do not want to lose the discount,
though I find the contravention harsh and quite possibly
unjustified
I don't know if there is any mileage in the length of the
junction box, mentioned above, the fact that the car stopped
rolling for onlly 5 seconds, was only half in the box, or the
fact that the situation was created by a preceding car which I
could not see nor have any control
It is not clear when the discount period ends, i.e. when I have
to make a decision whether to go double-or-nothing
#Post#: 3157--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 12, 2023, 5:56 pm
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The birds-eye camera shows a contravention. The car drives into
the box behind another one that then stops clear of the YBJ,
leaving the car behind having to stop "due to the presence of
stationary vehicles" HOwever whether this tein camera approach
is legal I'm not sure. If the times on each camera match
together, then an adjudicatoe may well rule the PCN is valid,
(sorry to have to say it !)
#Post#: 3159--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 13, 2023, 4:31 am
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Sorry. The latter part of the video reveals all.
#Post#: 3168--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: gumph69
Date: August 13, 2023, 5:20 am
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Though, as Incandescent points out, there is no number plate
shown in the second, bird's eye video.
The first video does not show the target car entering the
junction box or why; the second video shows a non-specific car
being forced to stop for 5 seconds due to a preceding car
stopping short, preventing the car in question from clearing the
box which he reasonably would have been able to do
#Post#: 3176--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 13, 2023, 8:25 am
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[member=294]gumph69[/member] I suggest you make a representation
based on everything included in your post of 10:14:24 pm
yesterday, you don't want to deny TFL the opportunity to mess up
the rejection.
That being said, the video is good enough because you can use
the timestamps from the two cameras to match up the bird's eye
view to the right VRM.
#Post#: 3184--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: gumph69
Date: August 13, 2023, 12:57 pm
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These are my proposed representations. It is not clear when the
discount period ends but, to be safe, I should probbaly submit
this tonight. If anyone has any comments or suggestions for
improvements, please let me know
Thank you
I would like to make representations against this PCN
I barely recall this day 5 weeks ago but have now seen the
relevant video. I was travelling within the speed limit along
with the flow of traffic along the A23, Streatham High Rd
As I entered the T-junction of Sunnyhill Rd, I focused left and
right as there were cars on both sides turning onto and from the
A road. When I entered the junction box, traffic was flowing and
there was no stationary vehicle in front of me. I entered the
box in reasonable anticipation that the car in front of me would
leave me with sufficient space and my exit would be clear.
Suddenly, the vehicle 2cars in front of me suddenly stopped even
though there was enough space in front of him to fit another
entire vehicle. This caused the car immediately in front of me
to stop, blocking my exit from the intersection which I had
already entered. The lack of adequate visibility prevented me
from making a clear judgement before entering the box. Even
though I was keeping a standard distance behind the car in front
in congested traffic, it stopped at the top of the junction box,
leaving me nowhere to go
The junction box was extraordinarily long, extending across the
T-junction and just beyond the pavements on both sides of
Sunnyhill Rd. This is longer than necessary. The length of the
box was about that of 1 ½ buses. Traffic in London does not
maintain 1 ½ bus-lengths between vehicles at the best of times.
In addition, where my car stopped rolling for 5-second, the half
of the car that was still in the box was not aligned with
Sunnyhill Rd, which I had cleared, but rather with the pavement.
At this point, the box is not protecting a cross movement. Thus,
this section of the box should not be ticketed and a PCN is not
justified
I could not, at that point, turn left as I had passed the road;
The 2-lane road, at this point, has temporarily reduced to 1
lane. Therefore, I could not change lanes. I tried to slow,
trusting that the front car would fill the space in front of him
and allow me to clear the box, but they did not in time and I
was forced to stop rolling forward for 5 seconds. I did my best
not to block anyone
As it was, only half of my vehicle was left in the box and that
was for only a few seconds. One can see from my attempt to keep
moving forward and to the side, that I was trying to avoid
stopping in the box. As it was, no traffic was obstructed, no
gridlock was created, no through movement was prevented, which
is the purpose of junction boxes. In fact, one can see in the
video that a car was easily able to turn around me
It was not my intention to stop in the junction box. I agree
with them and am critical of drivers who deliberately stop in
them. I try to be careful of them without resorting to
stop/start, jerky driving. I think that, in these circumstances,
a PCN is a harsh penalty. Had a preceding car not inexplicably
stopped where it did, I would have been fine
In short, the situation was created by a preceding car which I
could not see nor over which I could have any control
#Post#: 3328--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 15, 2023, 5:26 pm
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Send that off and let's see what they say. I'm not sure that
would win on its own at the tribunal, but you never want to deny
an authority an opportunity to mess things up.
#Post#: 4775--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: gumph69
Date: September 10, 2023, 12:12 pm
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HTML https://ibb.co/nB0pNp8
TFL has taken its time but the inevitable rejection has just
arrived, 2 months after the PCN was issued
They are satisfied that half of my car being stationary for 5
second is sufficient to reject the appeal, even though I was
past the cross road of the sidestreet and did not prevent any
other vehicle from turning from or onto the side road (one car
actuallyy did so without issue)
The other appeal notes such as the preceding car that stopped
short and prevented me from clearing the box, or the fact that
the junction box was excessively long and exceded the joinng
road, or that is was clear when I entered it, none of these were
addressed in the rejection
It is not clear when the re-offered discount period ends. The
rejection is dated 1 Sep but did not arrive until 9 Sep
Thank you for your assistance
#Post#: 4819--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: September 10, 2023, 6:06 pm
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The total stop is 5 seconds so at the upper bounds of
de-minimis, the box extends a bit beyond the junction, and the
notice of rejection doesn't actually specify what the amount due
actually is (it says £80 but doesn't say if this is the full or
discounted amount).
Those issues, cumulatively, barely make this case a 50 / 50
gamble at the tribunal.
However you are quite right in saying the PCN doesn't specify
when the discounted period ends, and I've won on this before,
see for instance Nayeem Haque v Transport for London
(2220767288, 15 November 2022)
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1KavlK0nNvWS2eI9ICkqjBQRg9-L-2mHc
If the 14 day discount period starts with the date of the
notice, then the last day is 14 September.
If however we count from the deemed date of service, you have
until 18 September.
On top of that you didn't actually receive the rejection until 9
September, we can't rely on that as there's no way TFL could
know, but it means that an attempt to pay next weekend or even
on the 18th would not be particularly tardy.
What I would suggest is that you keep an eye on the amount due,
if it goes up to £160 before 18 September we can appeal it based
on the ambiguity in the discount period (note: a timestamped
screenshot will be needed for this, PM me and I can do that).
If the penalty is still at £80 on 18 September, you'll have to
decide whether to pay or risk the full penalty at the tribunal
on what won't be a particularly solid case.
#Post#: 5167--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: gumph69
Date: September 14, 2023, 4:24 pm
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Here are a few pics. I could take more or even measure the
lenght of the junction box + road width, if it helps
One photo shows how even an elongated van only covers half the
box. It is hard to calculate, whilst driving down a crowded
London road, if the junction of this length will be clear by the
time it is traversed. As it was, the bit in which the rearof my
car stopped, was not adjacent to the road, but only to the
pavement on Sunnyhill. No cars were prevented from entering or
leaving Sunnyhill, in fact one car turned in from the High Rd
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