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#Post#: 1807--------------------------------------------------
TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: gumph69
Date: July 23, 2023, 12:16 pm
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HTML https://ibb.co/dcdB8nb
Good day
I barely recall this moment. I am usually very careful about
getting caught in junction boxes. On this day I recall somehow
having my vision blocked or someone cutting in or, perhaps, I
just kept creeping along until the traffic ahead of me cleared
At any rate, the evidence is video-based but I see no links to
view the video. I cannot argue against evidence that I cannot
see
Also, the 14-day 'discount'period, it is stated, begins from the
date of notice, not from the date of service
As well, the closest Ground for representations mention 'why
there was no faiure to drive the vehicle in the way shown on the
sign'. Obviously, with a junction box, there is no 'sign'
Thank you for you attention
#Post#: 1808--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: MrChips
Date: July 23, 2023, 1:33 pm
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Hello.
For PCNs issued by TFL the only way to access the video is to
call them and request it - they will put the penalty on hold for
a few days and send you a DVD in the post.
Please do this asap as we cannot assist without seeing the
primary evidence.
#Post#: 1809--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: gumph69
Date: July 23, 2023, 1:56 pm
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Thank you, Mr Chips
That seems like an extraordinary hurdle to obtain basic
evidence. Nonetheless, I will do it in the morning
#Post#: 1827--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: gumph69
Date: July 24, 2023, 2:38 am
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I have made the request to TFL for a copy of the evidence. They
will put the case on hold for 2 weeks in the interim. I will
post if and when I receive it. I do not imagine that the tiny
photos on the PCN link will provide much clarity
I note that the contact number for this request appears nowhere
on the PCN or representation fact sheet. It is, perhaps, a
bigger issue but it should not involved locating a phone number
and waiting on hold for a phone call to be answered in order to
obtain the necessary evidence to make an appeal. I would call
that a procedural impropriety
Thank you
#Post#: 1876--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 24, 2023, 1:25 pm
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--- Quote from: gumph69 link ---
>
> It is, perhaps, a bigger issue but it should not involved
locating a phone number and waiting on hold for a phone call to
be answered in order to obtain the necessary evidence to make an
appeal. I would call that a procedural impropriety
>
--- End Quote ---
Unfortunately under the legislation, TFL are not required to
supply the footage at all. TFL could say that they're going
above and beyond by supplying anything, they don't even have to
supply photos.
The truth is they only provide photos and videos because they
think it will persuade more people to pay up.
#Post#: 1887--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: gumph69
Date: July 24, 2023, 3:26 pm
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Thank you for that. I accept that you know the facts
Nonetheless, I find it difficult to reconcile that a government
body can prosecute someone and not be obliged to produce the
evidence, in discovery, on which they rely
What you seem to be saying is that TFL, in this case, can simply
say ‘you committed a contravention, take our word for it, pay
up. We are not obliged to give you a fair opportunity to defend
yourself’
Wow
#Post#: 1897--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 24, 2023, 4:49 pm
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The PCN offers you an opportunity to accept liability and pay
the penalty immediately, and in exchange for that you get a 50%
discount. You are entirely within your rights make
representations and if those are rejected, you have a legal
right to go to the tribunal and at that stage, TFL will have to
disclose all the evidence it relies on. The problem is that by
then, the discount will be long gone.
This is no different to a criminal case where someone might be
offered a fixed penalty or a police caution, in either scenario
the police don't need to disclose any evidence as the accussed
has to be willing to accept the out of court disposal. The
accussed is 100% entitled to go to court, plead not guilty and
require the police to prove their case with evidence, but at
that point the out-of-court option is gone. Even if no
out-of-court disposal is ever offered, you get up to a 33%
discount on any criminal fine by pleading guilty at the earliest
opportunity (which again saves the police and the CPS the
trouble of proving their case at trial).
There is a compelling argument that if someone is willing to
accept liability without putting the state to the trouble and
expense of proving its case, the accused should be rewarded with
a discount on the punishment.
There is a counter-argument that such arrangements will
incentivise some innocent people to accept guilt or liability to
avoid the risk of a more severe punishment.
Whether these arrangements should be the way they are is a
political issue rather than a legal one of course, when dealing
with a live case we can only deal with the law as it currently
stands.
All that being said, TFL do voluntarily provide the video, so
it's all a bit academic.
#Post#: 2927--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: gumph69
Date: August 8, 2023, 2:08 pm
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Just a quick update for the record
I requested an evidentiary DVD to be sent to me on 24/7. It
still has not arrived
I rang TFL yesterday and they said that it takes 14 working days
(originally 14 days) to arrive.
Hopefully they will continue to put the matter on hold until I
receive the disc
#Post#: 2999--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 9, 2023, 5:47 pm
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The deadline to make representations is Sunday and I wouldn't
take any chances.
If you've not had the video in Saturday's post at the latest,
send a representation as follows:
[indent]
Dear Transport for London,
Despite repeated requests, I have not received the video. As I
have not seen any footage, I can deny that the contravention
occurred and I request that if you reject this representation,
you send me a copy of the video footage you rely on. I trust
that given the delay in sending me the video, you will reoffer
the 50% discount in any event.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
Also please give us the number plate so that we can see the case
history on TFL's website.
#Post#: 3009--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
DIR By: gumph69
Date: August 9, 2023, 6:20 pm
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I shall follow your advice. I will call tomorrow and put it in
writing on Saturday
EF61MVX
Thank you
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