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#Post#: 29087--------------------------------------------------
No Right Turn = No U Turn ?
DIR By: John_S
Date: July 8, 2024, 7:06 am
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If a driver u-turns immediately after a ‘No Right Turn’ sign,
does s/he commit a contravention? Does anyone know of any
adjudicator decisions on this question please?
#Post#: 29091--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Right Turn = No U Turn ?
DIR By: DrSatan
Date: July 8, 2024, 7:26 am
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It'll depend on the wording of the traffic order in place. Most
prohibitions will be worded along the lines of 'Motor vehicles
are prohibited from turning right from Main Street into Side
Street', so a u-turn on Main Street should be ok unless
expressly forbidden.
At your own risk, obviously. If the pigs see you doing it and
it's one of the stupider ones they might still pull you over.
#Post#: 29102--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Right Turn = No U Turn ?
DIR By: John_S
Date: July 8, 2024, 8:40 am
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[member=1361]DrSatan[/member], thanks for the prompt reply.
#Post#: 29111--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Right Turn = No U Turn ?
DIR By: 666
Date: July 8, 2024, 9:35 am
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--- Quote from: DrSatan link ---
>
> It'll depend on the wording of the traffic order in place.
Most prohibitions will be worded along the lines of 'Motor
vehicles are prohibited from turning right from Main Street into
Side Street', so a u-turn on Main Street should be ok unless
expressly forbidden.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
I may be completely wrong, but ... the meaning of the NRT sign
(as per TSRGD 2016, sh3, part 2) is simply "No right turn for
vehicular traffic", with no ifs or buts about specific
destinations. It is not possible to perform a U-turn without
turning right.
#Post#: 29131--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Right Turn = No U Turn ?
DIR By: slapdash
Date: July 8, 2024, 12:42 pm
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HTML https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-of-red-routes/banned-turns
TFL offer some guidance (which happens to correlate with 666).
It says what you may do rather than what you may not.
I recall a couple of threads where it was an issue, but cannot
remember the outcome.
#Post#: 29154--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Right Turn = No U Turn ?
DIR By: John_S
Date: July 8, 2024, 2:54 pm
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--- Quote ---
> It is not possible to perform a U-turn without turning right.
--- End Quote ---
That's basically how I interpret the sign.
I was involved in a case in 2007 where a vehicle appeared to
3-point-turn after a NRT sign. The adjudicator allowed the
appeal because the Authority failed to provide a TMO. But he
remarked that he probably wouldn’t have allowed it on the basis
that a u-turn was performed.
I’m specifically thinking about Aldwych/Strand (s/w bound)
junction of Wellington Street (cycle track).
#Post#: 29216--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Right Turn = No U Turn ?
DIR By: DrSatan
Date: July 9, 2024, 3:44 am
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--- Quote from: John_S link ---
>
> I’m specifically thinking about Aldwych/Strand (s/w bound)
junction of Wellington Street (cycle track).
>
--- End Quote ---
Yeah, you're hosed.
The traffic order
HTML https://www.westminstertransportationservices.co.uk/limey/common/pages/download.php?file=SnVzdFMwbWVUM3h0TDJodmJXVXZkek56ZEcxcGJuTjBaWEowY3k5d2RXSnNhV05mYUhSdGJDOTBiVzh2Wm1sc1pYTXZWME5ESURJd01UY2dUbTh1SURZekxuQmtaZz09<br
/>has a hatched area on wellington street which says only pedal
cycles can enter, but it also says "No person shall cause any
vehicle to enter the area of the carriageway which lies between
the island sites" and you can't u-turn without breaching that.
#Post#: 29332--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Right Turn = No U Turn ?
DIR By: John_S
Date: July 10, 2024, 3:04 am
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[member=1361]DrSatan[/member] I'm impressed that you managed to
dig-out the order so quickly.
This is very helpful but in 2017 when the order was made, the
NRT sign was not in place. Having read the order, it's not clear
to me what 'island sites' actually means. If 'island sites'
relates to the area of road reserved for buses turning onto
Waterloo Bridge - then where's the exemption for buses and
cycles? In 2022 (or slightly earlier) the markings were changed
and the Aldwych Scheme was completed (with a new NRT sign).
I'll try and dig out the new TMO covering the Aldwych Scheme and
see if it extends to this junction.
#Post#: 30897--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Right Turn = No U Turn ?
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: July 24, 2024, 2:13 am
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224007474A
The Appellant did not attend but was represented by Mr Morgan,
whose detailed submissions I note. However it seems to me
unnecessary to arrive at a final view on the merits of those
submissions as the Appeal falls to be allowed for more
fundamental reasons.
I am not satisfied on the evidence that the manoeuvre seen in
the CCTV amounts to a U-turn.. The vehicle appears to be making
a sharp right turn into an adjacent road; nor am I satisfied
that, if this was a U-turn, that the signs prohibiting that
manoeuvre were clear and visible. The site photographs showing
the sign are not of the best quality or very informative. It
also sems to me that the PCN itself is defective in that it does
not clearly state what sort of turn is referred to as the basis
for its issue and thus does not state what the motorist is
supposed to have done wrong. There are occasions where defects
in wording can be covered by what is shown in the photographs
but that is not so in the present case. In my view the PCN
therefore does not comply with the requirement to state the
grounds on which a penalty is said to be due, and no penalty can
be demanded on the basis of it.
For all these reasons the Appeal is allowed.
#Post#: 31074--------------------------------------------------
Re: No Right Turn = No U Turn ?
DIR By: John_S
Date: July 25, 2024, 3:29 am
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[member=24]Hippocrates[/member], 224007474A appears to relate to
Ilford High Road, west of Seven Kings Road. Whilst this seems to
be a very interesting case, where the driver appears to turn
right against a no-u-turn sign - I was thinking of this the
other-way-around. What if the driver had u-turned against a NRT
sign?
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