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#Post#: 1797--------------------------------------------------
Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times
allowed, Lochrin Buildings
DIR By: narwhal4543
Date: July 23, 2023, 9:00 am
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Hi all,
I'm hoping for some advice re. appealing a parking ticket. And
if I have just got it wrong, please say because I feel like I'm
going mad.
The bays and signage is very confusing.
I parked in a bay with a broken single yellow line through it.
There is signage immediately next to the bay, on the border of
the bay and the single yellow line behind it. I interpreted this
as meaning:
1. The right hand signage applied to the right of the sign, the
left hand signage applied to the left.
2. Therefore, no restrictions applied on a Saturday when I as
parked
HTML https://i.imgur.com/VkqmnuA.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/t7P4h7i.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/9rPWbc7.jpg
I appealed in, saying the following:
--- Quote ---
> The signs say the following:
> Right hand side (applying to the parking bays to the right of
this post) No stopping Monday-Friday 08:00-09:15 and 16:30-18:30
No Loading Monday-Friday 08:00-09:15 and 16:30-18:30
Monday-Friday, you may pay and display between 09:15 and 16:30
(between the restricted hours above)
> Left hand side (applying to the single yellow line to the
right of this post) No stopping Monday-Saturday 08:00 - 18:30 No
Loading No Loading Monday-Friday 08:00-09:15 and 16:30-18:30 I
was parked legally today, a Saturday, in a parking bay to the
right of these signs.
> The parking payment machine confirms the restricted hours for
these bays as on the right hand side of the signage,
Monday-Friday 08:00-09:15 and 16:30-18:30.
>
> I am appealing this PCN: 1. Because I was legally parked 2. If
it is the council's position that I was not legally parked, then
I challenge because the signage is unclear and confusing, and
therefore unenforceable. For this to be the case, you would have
to argue that the sign in the top left applies to both the
single yellow line and the parking bays. It would also render
the top right hand sign redundant. One of the middle signs would
also be redundant. This is confusing and unclear. I believe I
was legally parked as I was in a designated parking bay outside
of restricted hours. I attach a photo showing 3 things: 1. The
yellow car, legally parked within a parking bay, the borders of
which you can see in the bottom left. 2. The signage 3. The
parking payment meter
--- End Quote ---
This appeal was rejected as follows:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/GvLLLe4.png
To me, this is all very unclear and therefore, as I understand
it, unenforeable.
Maps:
[url=
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@55.9416953,-3.2051715,3a,75y,349.22h,87.83t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sF218unqzwt-fk6dkZAPYfw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DF218unqzwt-fk6dkZAPYfw%26cb_client%3Dsearch.gws-prod.gps%26w%3D86%26h%3D86%26yaw%3D334.32385%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu""]GOOGLE<br
/>MAPS[/url]
Screenshot from maps. I have tried to show where I understood
the restrictions to apply:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/3xc2L6r.jpg
I do want to take this further, as I think I have a case. But
happy to be told otherwise!
Any help and advice is most welcome.
All the best,
Tom
#Post#: 1824--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times
allowed, Lochrin Buildings
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 23, 2023, 7:06 pm
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Please post both sides of the PCN in full, no redactions. In the
meantime I'll get hold of the map tile for this location.
#Post#: 1831--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times
allowed, Lochrin Buildings
DIR By: narwhal4543
Date: July 24, 2023, 5:52 am
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Images below.
For other info, I posted to reddit and received a few
interesitng asnwers interesting answers
HTML https://www.reddit.com/r/Edinburgh/comments/157aqql/mad_parking_ticket_advice_re_appeal/.<br
/>
The most helpful, I think, is this:
--- Quote ---
> I occasionally design roads for adoption. The history of the
rules here shows two very poorly designed road changes:
>
> In 2011 parking bays were added for the shops (4 hours max
parking). To prohibit parking over-stays, a single yellow line
is used to restrict parking/waiting for a couple hours before
and after the restricted times. But the road already had a
single yellow line restriction Monday-Saturday, so the double
signs are used to show where the restrictions stop and start.
>
> In 2012 a bin space was provided for the shops within the
parking bay.
HTML https://www.tellmescotland.gov.uk/notices/city-of-edinburgh/traffic/00000058183<br
/>
HTML https://www.tellmescotland.gov.uk/attachments/16/1549364647/58183_2467_12_32B%20Plans%201%20of%204.pdf<br
/>This was done by removing the parking bay for a short section,
rather than hatching or a bay. This meant changing the single
yellow line again, for one short section. For this, another
double sign was added to the right hand side of the bin.
However, crucially, no sign was provided to the left hand side
to show where the single yellow line changes back into the
parking bay over-stay restriction.
>
> The Council's own Edinburgh GIS "Atlas" doesn't even show the
yellow lines.
HTML https://cityofedinburgh.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=783e530d92994246bcaeb7419437fd78
>
> **** poor all around and overstay restriction should clearly
be removed.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://i.imgur.com/QkG9yHt.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/6TQ7GPn.jpg
#Post#: 1877--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times
allowed, Lochrin Buildings
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 24, 2023, 1:31 pm
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Well the map tiles from the traffic order are on their way, just
let us know when you get the Notice to Owner and post it on
here, just redact your postal address.
#Post#: 1910--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times
allowed, Lochrin Buildings
DIR By: lexy
Date: July 24, 2023, 10:20 pm
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Council is definitely in the wrong here. Those two conflicting
signs 10 feet apart shouldn’t be there. As someone has already
said, it looks like they took a bay away go make space for the
wheelie bin and made a mess of things.
An easy win if you take it over the council’s head.
#Post#: 3750--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times
allowed, Lochrin Buildings
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 23, 2023, 5:28 am
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Map tile here
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=15PL0fJFDJkSkKXp_0jvTYMAQyhoywhmo,<br
/>any sign of the NTO yet?
#Post#: 3829--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times
allowed, Lochrin Buildings
DIR By: narwhal4543
Date: August 24, 2023, 4:36 pm
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Just received! Should I post up a picture of it?
Thank you for your time on this. Much appreciated.
#Post#: 3836--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times
allowed, Lochrin Buildings
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: August 25, 2023, 2:28 am
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--- Quote ---
> Just received! Should I post up a picture of it?
--- End Quote ---
Yup. All sides. Only redact name and address.
#Post#: 3922--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times
allowed, Lochrin Buildings
DIR By: narwhal4543
Date: August 27, 2023, 4:21 am
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Ok thank you, attached here.
T
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 3977--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times
allowed, Lochrin Buildings
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 28, 2023, 6:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It's amazing what can emerge when you put your thinking cap on:
the signs, bays and lines are actually all correct and perfectly
match the traffic order, and you interpreted all the signs
correctly in the first place (the signs are not best practice as
they're missing directional signs, but their positioning makes
the extent of the restrictions perfectly clear). It's the
parking warden who misunderstood the signs, and I very much
suspect that whoever looked at the informal representations
didn't bother to look at this properly and just assumed you were
parked illegally.
This is going to be really easy:
[indent]
Dear City of Edinburgh Council,
The alleged contravention did not occur. The signs plainly
indicate that the yellow line outside the parking bay is in
force on a Saturday, but the single yellow line within the bay
is only in force from Monday to Friday. Having checked the map
tile at
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=15PL0fJFDJkSkKXp_0jvTYMAQyhoywhmo<br
/>it is clear that this is correctly reflected in the traffic
regulation order.
It follows that the bays, signs and yellow line markings are all
entirely correct, as was my interpretation of them. It is
parking attendant E1720 who misunderstood the restrictions, so
it would appear some refresher training would be in order. It is
plain that whoever considered my informal representations either
didn't understand the evidence, or did not consider it properly
or at all and simply assumed I was parked unlawfully, so L
Harkness should receive some refresher training as well.
As neither the signs nor the traffic order support the
contravention, it would be wholly unreasonable for you to reject
this representation.
It follows that should you issue a Notice of Rejection, I will
be seeking costs against you at the tribunal.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
Send the representation online and get a screenshot of the
confirmation screen.
If they don't acknowledge that they got it wrong in the
rejection letter, I really think you should pursue a formal
complaint against both parking attendant E1720, and against L
Harkness: the PCN should not have been issued in the first
place, and once challenged it should have been promptly
cancelled with no fuss.
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