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#Post#: 28755--------------------------------------------------
Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by
mistake
DIR By: taffer87
Date: July 5, 2024, 12:18 pm
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parked here by mistake in a rush for 5 minutes and stupidly did
not notice it was a disabled bay
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/2co76C63t55oZj5f7?g_st=ic
Will upload council photos tomorrow when they are on website.
Keen to find out if there are any flaws in the PCN or signage
please.
In addition I saw on another post on FTLA that this sign maybe
invalid - is that true so I can use something like the below
which is copy pasted from ‘guest17’
“ Ground 3
The sign governing the bay is not contained within The Traffic
Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 nor have the
Council obtained DfT permission to use it. There is no provision
within the legislation to use the term "Residents" nor a permit
identifier for anything other than a dedicated bay reserved for
an individual disabled person.Therefore the traffic sign is a
nullity and cannot be enforced, making the PCN invalid.
Ground 4
The Council's intention of reserving disabled bays for residents
only is discriminatory (against non-resident disabled people)
and I would refer you to both the Equality Act 2010 and moreso
to The Equality Act 2010 (Amendment) Regulations 2023.
Therefore the traffic management rationale giving rise to the
TMO is fatally flawed to the extent that the Council actions are
ultra vires. In such circumstances enforcement of this bay
cannot proceed.”
I have a lease car and there will hopefully be plenty of
opportunity to use the normal flaws in the way councils deal
with the transfer of liability process +
the argument that the lease agreement doesn’t create a permanent
disposition (as it is in a one year extension where i can return
at anytime).
pcn photo here
HTML https://i.ibb.co/dDMw63f/IMG-3223.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/NKCdpkF
HTML https://i.ibb.co/KWJ1LsQ/IMG-3231.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/w4fvwQb
HTML https://i.ibb.co/NY64PjQ/IMG-3230.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/XJZwgsN
HTML https://i.ibb.co/cLDTksr/IMG-3228.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/dgGKjH5
#Post#: 28776--------------------------------------------------
Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by
mistake
DIR By: taffer87
Date: July 5, 2024, 4:48 pm
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Council photos here:
HTML https://i.ibb.co/4SVLnGB/Council-photo5.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/M1CHx4q
HTML https://i.ibb.co/xf4X7Tc/Council-photo4.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/2sbWk4L
HTML https://i.ibb.co/q56swQf/Council-photo3.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/sH7wrYG
HTML https://i.ibb.co/wcPhgGD/Council-photo2.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/sWN9RxL
HTML https://i.ibb.co/3mn9mfR/Council-photo1.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/VYscYHw
#Post#: 28787--------------------------------------------------
Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by
mistake
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 6, 2024, 3:36 am
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So here, I think: -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/QEBZXDapULkaFypA8
Clear sign and road marking.
Any reason for not noticing the sign which would have been right
by your car ?
#Post#: 28790--------------------------------------------------
Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by
mistake
DIR By: taffer87
Date: July 6, 2024, 3:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> So here, I think: -
>
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/QEBZXDapULkaFypA8
> Clear sign and road marking.
>
> Any reason for not noticing the sign which would have been
right by your car ?
>
--- End Quote ---
It's just plain stupidity and oversight... TBH as could have
parked somewhere else but wasn't focusing as thought it was all
a permit zone where I have a permit for.
I am looking at submitting the below informal challenge later
today to begin the process.
1. The council enforcement officer did not follow the required
observation period to see if an exempt activity was taking place
and hence for the breach of council policy the PCN. Council
observation policy mandates a minimum of 5 minute observation
period but the enforcement officer issued the PCN instantly
The policy can be found here:
HTML https://www.newham.gov.uk/downloads/file/3926/newhamparkingpolicyprocedures
This shows on page 51/81 of the pdf page numbers (or page 48 of
the bottom right page numbers) that a mandatory observation
period of 5 minutes is required before an enforcement officer
can issue a PCN under Newham Policy for Code 16 Parking in a
permit space without displaying a valid permit.
If the council disagrees with this please provide the full
observation policy which allows an enforcement officer to issue
a PCN for code 16 without any observation period at all as the
PCN was incorrectly issued instantly, so an informed decision
regarding next steps can be taken
2. This is only an advisory bay so no PCN can be issued in any
case, please provide the full Traffic Management Order that
allows the council to issue a PCN against this particular
contravention on this bay including the full list of exempt
activities
3. The location stated in the PCN "OS 14" is incorrect and not
clear
4. The sign governing the bay is not contained within The
Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 nor have
the Council obtained DfT permission to use it. There is no
provision within the legislation to use the term "Residents" nor
a permit identifier for anything other than a dedicated bay
reserved for an individual disabled person. Therefore the
traffic sign is a nullity and cannot be enforced, making the PCN
invalid.
If the council disagrees please provide the full
dispensation/approval from DFT so an informed decision regarding
next steps can be taken.
5.The Council's intention of reserving disabled bays for
residents only is discriminatory (against non-resident disabled
people) and I would refer you to both the Equality Act 2010 and
moreso to The Equality Act 2010 (Amendment) Regulations 2023.
Therefore the traffic management rationale giving rise to the
TMO is fatally flawed to the extent that the Council actions are
ultra vires. In such circumstances enforcement of this bay
cannot proceed.
#Post#: 28799--------------------------------------------------
Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by
mistake
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: July 6, 2024, 5:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Can we pl nail this type of bay.
It is NOT a 'disabled bay', it is a bay reserved to specified
permit holders. In this case 'Disabled Resident' with the permit
identifier CT.
As regards permit bays, the Traffic Sign etc. Regs provide
wording variants which include:
3. A type or types of user may be included and, where the user
is a type of permit holder, a permit identifier may be included.
4. A legend provided for at 3 above may be varied by the
addition of “only” or “only at all times”
No authorisation is needed IMO. If the council have created in a
traffic order a type of permit called 'Disabled Resident Permit'
then they are perfectly entitled to do so IMO and the sign is
correct.
'Disabled' is not a permitted road marking for this bay - but it
looks as if it's being allowed to fade away.
OP, your point regarding observation would seem to be relevant,
which is why I suspect you introduced 5 minutes into your
narrative for how long you parked, but whether this could win
the day I don't know.
#Post#: 28805--------------------------------------------------
Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by
mistake
DIR By: taffer87
Date: July 6, 2024, 6:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Can we pl nail this type of bay.
>
> It is NOT a 'disabled bay', it is a bay reserved to specified
permit holders. In this case 'Disabled Resident' with the permit
identifier CT.
>
> As regards permit bays, the Traffic Sign etc. Regs provide
wording variants which include:
>
> 3. A type or types of user may be included and, where the user
is a type of permit holder, a permit identifier may be included.
>
> 4. A legend provided for at 3 above may be varied by the
addition of “only” or “only at all times”
>
> No authorisation is needed IMO. If the council have created in
a traffic order a type of permit called 'Disabled Resident
Permit' then they are perfectly entitled to do so IMO and the
sign is correct.
>
> 'Disabled' is not a permitted road marking for this bay - but
it looks as if it's being allowed to fade away.
>
> OP, your point regarding observation would seem to be
relevant, which is why I suspect you introduced 5 minutes into
your narrative for how long you parked, but whether this could
win the day I don't know.
>
--- End Quote ---
I suspected so and you appear correct but let’s see what council
says (most likely nothing specific).
given the lease agreement I have I am quite happy to take it all
the way as very confident they (council) will mess up in any
case so this is just to get the ball rolling
No flaws in PCN itself?
The observation period is council policy but good to understand
if there is any statutory guidance or regs for observation
period too or grace period at the start. Unclear why the officer
issued the permit instantly without waiting to observe as
required.
#Post#: 28806--------------------------------------------------
Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by
mistake
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: July 6, 2024, 6:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
For me the 3 things i would concentrate on would be
1 the bay markings. There should be double edge markings to
differentiate the bay from the others If you hold a permit bay
for that bay why would you look for a different sign
the disabled legend being faded
The TMO does it accommodate a disabled resident bay or is it
designated purely as a resident bay
#Post#: 28825--------------------------------------------------
Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by
mistake
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: July 6, 2024, 9:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Picking upon PMB's point about bay markings, OP just stand back
and look at the array of markings and signs, it's a mess.
Firstly, in order to review this it needs to be said IMO you
were parked on the wrong side of the road therefore it's not
what's behind you car which applies, it's what's in front!
Using GSV, the sequence starts o/s no. 18 with a single line
parking place line. This means that the bay is continuous and
not sub-divided by intra-bay markings into separate bays -
standard for permit bays. Then two cars' lengths into the bay
there's an internal dividing mark which is not accompanied by a
traffic sign. This looks like a c**k-up. It could mean the end
of the permit holder bay which would fit the single marking at
the beginning. But this begs the question, if it's the end then
what the hell is the next bay because there isn't a traffic sign
to convey the new restriction.
But there is..if the next bay is a 24/7 disabled bay then as I
understand it an upright sign isn't required, a road marking
would do. So looking at this in the direction of travel of
traffic it means that you were parked in a disabled bay. Not a
permit bay.
Then when one reaches the end of this bay there's another
end-bay marking with a traffic sign which does not include an
arrow. This cannot therefore apply before the sign's reached,
only after. Which means that the DPB is the next bay.
So, if the road marking is intended, it's a 24/7 disabled bay
and it's the wrong contravention. But if not, it's a permit
holder's bay, and you've got a permit!
IMO.
#Post#: 28872--------------------------------------------------
Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by
mistake
DIR By: taffer87
Date: July 6, 2024, 5:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Picking upon PMB's point about bay markings, OP just stand
back and look at the array of markings and signs, it's a mess.
>
> Firstly, in order to review this it needs to be said IMO you
were parked on the wrong side of the road therefore it's not
what's behind you car which applies, it's what's in front!
>
> Using GSV, the sequence starts o/s no. 18 with a single line
parking place line. This means that the bay is continuous and
not sub-divided by intra-bay markings into separate bays -
standard for permit bays. Then two cars' lengths into the bay
there's an internal dividing mark which is not accompanied by a
traffic sign. This looks like a c**k-up. It could mean the end
of the permit holder bay which would fit the single marking at
the beginning. But this begs the question, if it's the end then
what the hell is the next bay because there isn't a traffic sign
to convey the new restriction.
>
> But there is..if the next bay is a 24/7 disabled bay then as I
understand it an upright sign isn't required, a road marking
would do. So looking at this in the direction of travel of
traffic it means that you were parked in a disabled bay. Not a
permit bay.
>
> Then when one reaches the end of this bay there's another
end-bay marking with a traffic sign which does not include an
arrow. This cannot therefore apply before the sign's reached,
only after. Which means that the DPB is the next bay.
>
> So, if the road marking is intended, it's a 24/7 disabled bay
and it's the wrong contravention. But if not, it's a permit
holder's bay, and you've got a permit!
>
> IMO.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you. This indeed is very helpful. Do you think this has
any chance at succeeding at tribunal as don’t think council will
accept this. Any precedents from tribunal or references to
specific regulations willl be greatly appreciated
#Post#: 28881--------------------------------------------------
Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by
mistake
DIR By: taffer87
Date: July 6, 2024, 6:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Pastmybest link ---
>
> For me the 3 things i would concentrate on would be
>
> 1 the bay markings. There should be double edge markings to
differentiate the bay from the others If you hold a permit bay
for that bay why would you look for a different sign
>
> the disabled legend being faded
>
> The TMO does it accommodate a disabled resident bay or is it
designated purely as a resident bay
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you.
1. Is there any specific regulation I can point to re the first
point or tribunal cases etc?
2. For the faded disabed marking on the road, will leave it for
the formal reps but unclear if its a strong point TBH - good to
get your views?
3. I have requested the TMO via a FOI request as well an email I
found for newham
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