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#Post#: 28182--------------------------------------------------
Brent, Code:31, Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited, yellow box,Acton Lane/Mordaunt Road
DIR By: daisy
Date: July 1, 2024, 10:14 am
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Hello,
My husband received this PCN a week ago. My husband believes
that he is not at fault. We have tried to find someone to help
us with the challenge. Since we could not find anyone, we are
turning to you.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/CcB04ZI.jpeg
I hope I have added the video as well:
HTML https://youtu.be/4Z_aQIU6Uxc
This is the street view link:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/cy4sfpxHWAci6csj6
Thanks.
#Post#: 28198--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brent, Code:31, Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited, yellow box,Acton Lane/Mordaunt Road
DIR By: MrChips
Date: July 1, 2024, 12:46 pm
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Thanks for posting all the information.
I can't see any problems with the PCN letter, nor anything in
the video which might help with a challenge. The van enters the
box and then gets stuck behind the stationary bus.
For what reason does your husband think he is not at fault?
#Post#: 28199--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brent, Code:31, Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited, yellow box,Acton Lane/Mordaunt Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 1, 2024, 12:54 pm
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--- Quote ---
> My husband believes that he is not at fault.
--- End Quote ---
Why does your husband believe he is not at fault, because,
(sorry to have to say it), the video seems to show a clear
contravention ?
That's not to say there is no appeal argument, but we need to
hear from your husband concerning the circumstances at the time.
The camera is mounted high up so doesn't show the situation from
a driver point-of-view It is always best to submit
representations rather than cough-up straightaway. but there
does need to be a reasonable argument, however skeletal.
#Post#: 28207--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brent, Code:31, Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited, yellow box,Acton Lane/Mordaunt Road
DIR By: daisy
Date: July 1, 2024, 2:03 pm
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He thinks he is not at fault because the traffic is moving fine
when entering the yellow box. Suddenly, the van in front of the
bus pulls to the side causing traffic. As a result of that, my
husband gets stuck on the yellow box. How could he predict that
the van in front of the bus would choose to pull over?
I hope I have explained it right.
#Post#: 28224--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brent, Code:31, Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited, yellow box,Acton Lane/Mordaunt Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 1, 2024, 4:13 pm
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--- Quote from: daisy link ---
>
> He thinks he is not at fault because the traffic is moving
fine when entering the yellow box. Suddenly, the van in front of
the bus pulls to the side causing traffic. As a result of that,
my husband gets stuck on the yellow box. How could he predict
that the van in front of the bus would choose to pull over?
> I hope I have explained it right.
>
--- End Quote ---
I see what you mean, and he has my sympathy ! As you say, all
was moving well when he entered the box, and that is a key
event, because the van stopping out-of-course could not be
foreseen. So wait a bit to see what others say, although don't
miss any deadline dates on the PCN. Don't just cough-up as we
always recommend submitting some representations before deciding
whether to pay or go to LT.
#Post#: 28227--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brent, Code:31, Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited, yellow box,Acton Lane/Mordaunt Road
DIR By: MrChips
Date: July 1, 2024, 4:32 pm
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It is tough on your husband and such circumstances would catch
very many out.
Unfortunately, the nature of box junctions is that drivers
aren't meant to go inside unless they have a vacant exit already
available. As such they enter at their own risk that traffic
ahead will come to a halt, even unexpectedly.
If it was a valid defence to say 'I didn't expect the traffic to
stop' then box junctions would effectively be unenforceable so,
personally, I don't think that will help. Let's see if anyone
can come up with something more concrete.
#Post#: 28254--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brent, Code:31, Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited, yellow box,Acton Lane/Mordaunt Road
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 1, 2024, 6:37 pm
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I don't see any unforeseeable event in the video, the van might
in front of the bus might be pulling over or taking a left turn,
it hardly matters.
The arguments I can see are:
1) De-minimis, the van behind the bus only stops for 5 / 6
seconds, but this is really the upper-limit for a de-minimis
defence and won't be accepted by most adjudicators
2) Paperwork errors. The PCN makes a reference to the date of
service right next to the payment periods, which is arguably
ambiguous and confusing.
3) The website argument explained in the cases at rows 587 to
603 here
HTML https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit?gid=642784037#gid=642784037&range=A587.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/jszTAYE.png
The third point should only be raised at the tribunal stage, but
given its success rate it's definitely worth running given
Brent's website doesn't list any statutory grounds of appeal at
all.
As a starting point please post all the remaining pages of the
PCN so that we can check for further issues.
#Post#: 28357--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brent, Code:31, Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited, yellow box,Acton Lane/Mordaunt Road
DIR By: daisy
Date: July 2, 2024, 1:16 pm
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HTML https://i.imgur.com/2DbBc3N.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/s2uRWEg.jpeg
Thank you!
#Post#: 28488--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brent, Code:31, Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited, yellow box,Acton Lane/Mordaunt Road
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 3, 2024, 11:53 am
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Draft reps:
[indent]
Dear London Borough of Brent,
In the first instance I contend the PCN should be cancelled
because any contravention can be properly described as
de-minimis, the stopping time being around 5 seconds or so.
Furthermore I dispute the validity of the PCN because the
payment deadlines are ambiguous and unclear. The PCN asserts
that I have 28 days from the date of the notice to make payment,
but this is follow by text indicating that the date of service
is considered to be 2 working days from the date of the notice.
If the payment period is 28 days from the date of the notice
then the date of service would be irrelevant, so is appears that
the PCN should assert the payment period is 28 days from the
date of service of the notice. On the other hand if the payment
period is 28 days from the date of the notice, then it would
make no sense to indicate how the date of service is to be
calculated, as the date of service would be irrelevant. The same
ambiguity and uncertainty applies to the 14 day discount period.
In the circumstances the PCN is ambiguous and confusing as to
what the payment period is, so the PCN should be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
Send this online via
HTML https://brent.tarantoportal.com/
and keep a
screenshot of the confirmation page.
#Post#: 28501--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brent, Code:31, Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited, yellow box,Acton Lane/Mordaunt Road
DIR By: daisy
Date: July 3, 2024, 12:19 pm
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I have followed your advice and have submitted the
representation, with a screenshot of the confirmation.
I will keep you posted.
Thanks a million!
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