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#Post#: 11204--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bus lane PCN for havering, moved into bus lane for oncoming
traffic and issued with a PCN
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: November 25, 2023, 11:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: mrmustard link ---
>
> To bring everyone up to date.
>
> Havering rejected the representations on 26 October but didn't
bother to mention them in the rejection, just that the vehicle
was in the bus lane.
>
> I started an Appeal on 3 November on the basis that the Notice
of Rejection was inadequate and unlawful + the representations
themselves were still live.
>
> Yesterday, Havering decided to 'Do not contest' the Appeal.
>
> Hurrah.
>
--- End Quote ---
Require them to say why, I would. May have something to do with
my previous post. ;)
Appalling conduct in the other case and equally appalling advice
given to them by some lawyer a year ago re the camera issue.
If anyone wants to listen in, please do.
#Post#: 11205--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bus lane PCN for havering, moved into bus lane for oncoming
traffic and issued with a PCN
DIR By: mrmustard
Date: November 25, 2023, 11:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Good luck with your costs application.
I can't find it offhand but there is a tribunal decision by Mr
Chan that the costs of a representative are not the costs of the
Appellant (especially as I work pro bono - for free) and given
that 95% of the time spent is by the representative I no longer
regard it as worthwhile to make costs applications. The Appeal
was only 127 words which did not take long to formulate so any
claim would be a minimal amount. The main cost comes from
considering the evidence pack, writing the skeleton argument and
attending the tribunal in person, none of which happened.
#Post#: 11208--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bus lane PCN for havering, moved into bus lane for oncoming
traffic and issued with a PCN
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: November 25, 2023, 11:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: mrmustard link ---
>
> Good luck with your costs application.
>
> I can't find it offhand but there is a tribunal decision by Mr
Chan that the costs of a representative are not the costs of the
Appellant (especially as I work pro bono - for free) and given
that 95% of the time spent is by the representative I no longer
regard it as worthwhile to make costs applications. The Appeal
was only 127 words which did not take long to formulate so any
claim would be a minimal amount. The main cost comes from
considering the evidence pack, writing the skeleton argument and
attending the tribunal in person, none of which happened.
>
--- End Quote ---
Agreed.
#Post#: 11235--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bus lane PCN for havering, moved into bus lane for oncoming
traffic and issued with a PCN
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 25, 2023, 1:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: mrmustard link ---
>
> I can't find it offhand but there is a tribunal decision by Mr
Chan that the costs of a representative are not the costs of the
Appellant
>
--- End Quote ---
For reps costs to be recoverable, you have to charge the client
so that they become the client's costs. One solution is to agree
a fee with the client on the understanding that if costs are not
recovered from the opponent, the agreement won't be enforced,
[member=634]Nosy Parker[/member] does this.
As for Mr Chan thinking legal costs are never recoverable in
principle (which he has stated in a few decisions) he is
mistaken, he seems to think that they're not because they
wouldn't be recoverable in the small claims court, but that's
wrong because of CPR 27.14(g)
HTML https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part27#27.14.
Of course whether they should be recoverable in any given case
is a question at the absolute discretion of the adjudicator.
#Post#: 11243--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bus lane PCN for havering, moved into bus lane for oncoming
traffic and issued with a PCN
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: November 25, 2023, 2:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Mr Harman allowed costs in a Kingston case in January but not to
the representative. Fair enough.
Case reference 2220812407
Appellant Michael Jenkins
Authority Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames
VRM GK68LWO
Decision Cost award allowed
PCN Details
PCN QT06661986
Contravention date 01 Sep 2022
Contravention time 17:12:00
Contravention location Eden Street E/B between junctions with
Union St/St James Rd & Brook St
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Being in a bus lane
Referral date
Decision Date 05 Dec 2022
Adjudicator Andrew Harman
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement
Notice.
Reasons The appellant appeared before me today represented by Mr
Morgan, who sought to challenge his liability for this bus lane
penalty charge on the grounds set out in his speaking note
provided to me today. He relied upon Mr Stanton Dunne's decision
in Davy Georges Duthieuw (2220486482). He said that Mr Stanton
Dunne was considering a further bus lane appeal arising from
proceedings brought by Barnet Council. Although I said at the
hearing that that case had been decided that is not in fact so.
Evidence of this incident was gathered by cctv camera. Such
evidence is I find only admissible before this tribunal if it is
produced by a prescribed device that has been approved by the
Secretary of State. The council does not appear to adduce
evidence on either point. Its camera evidence is not therefore
admissible, and, in its absence, I cannot be satisfied that the
contravention occurred. The appeal is accordingly allowed
without consideration of any of the other issues raised by
either party to the proceedings.
Authority Response
Cost Details
Application by Appellant
Decision date 30 Jan 2023
Adjudicator Andrew Harman
Decision Cost award allowed
Direction -
Reasons I allowed this appeal on 05 12 22 at a personal hearing
both the appellant and his representative Mr Morgan appearing
before me. Mr Morgan appeared before me again today to argue his
application for an order for costs and expenses against the
council the grounds thereof being set out on his email of 17 12
22 supported by his witness statement of 09 12 22 and that of
the appellant of the same date. The council was put on notice as
to the application but has made no submissions in response
thereto. Upon reserving my decision. Evidence of this incident
was gathered by cctv camera. Such evidence was I found only
admissible before this tribunal if it was produced by a
prescribed device that had been approved by the Secretary of
State. The council did not adduce evidence on either point. I am
satisfied in the absence thereof and on the facts of this
specific case this issue having been raised in correspondence
with it that it acted wholly unreasonably in contesting the
appeal. I make no other finding in respect of any of the other
grounds raised by Mr Morgan. I am empowered to make an award in
respect of an appellant's costs and expenses but not in respect
of those incurred by a representative. I make an award in
respect of the appellant's expenses in full.
#Post#: 11294--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bus lane PCN for havering, moved into bus lane for oncoming
traffic and issued with a PCN
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 26, 2023, 8:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> Mr Harman allowed costs in a Kingston case in January but not
to the representative. Fair enough.
>
--- End Quote ---
As above, the representative's costs are only recoverable if the
appellant pays for them. Where an appellant has paid for my
train tickets to attend the tribunal in person and a costs award
has been made, the tribunal has always allowed the appellant to
recover those costs from the authority.
#Post#: 14642--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bus lane PCN for havering, moved into bus lane for oncoming
traffic and issued with a PCN
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: January 30, 2024, 4:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Just had this from the council:
[indent]
TES Ltd is the Manufacturer and Small Blue is the model.
[/indent]
It took a decision notice from the information commissioner to
force them to disclose this, I'll post it on here once it's
published.
#Post#: 14645--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bus lane PCN for havering, moved into bus lane for oncoming
traffic and issued with a PCN
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: January 30, 2024, 8:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: mrmustard link ---
>
> Good luck with your costs application.
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Successful
#Post#: 14808--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bus lane PCN for havering, moved into bus lane for oncoming
traffic and issued with a PCN
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: February 1, 2024, 5:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Case number?
#Post#: 14834--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bus lane PCN for havering, moved into bus lane for oncoming
traffic and issued with a PCN
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: February 2, 2024, 4:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> Case number?
>
--- End Quote ---
2230439332 (£38) costs hearing took place and 2230533614 (£95)
not contested. Both cases DNCed. Both paid - finally. ::) All
their paperwork now fixed.
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