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#Post#: 27662--------------------------------------------------
Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
DIR By: littlebee
Date: June 27, 2024, 4:27 am
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Hello everyone :-).
I hired a vehicle and used it for a long trip but sadly received
a 'Notice of Intended Prosecution'' for the alleged offence of
''Exceed a variable speed limit - automatic camera device'',
speed was allegedly 46mph and the speed limit was reduced to
40mph, this was on the M1 motorway where the national speed
limit is 70mph.
The variable speed limit changed throughout the journey, from
the national speed limit of 70 and all the variations in
between.
The reduction in speed appeared to be due to road works on the
motorway, it was around 04:00am when the traffic volume was low.
The speed adjustments were prevalent through out the journey and
part of me believes I was within the speed limit - not sure how
accurate the speeding cameras were and if the speed limits
readjusted just before I passed through a camera, for which they
have penalised me, but I cant be sure.
I received the notice of intended prosecution, 1 month after the
offence date (around 28 days between them) - I'm guessing the
Police must have contacted the hire company to get my details.
And to add to the problems, I've just received a fine from the
hire company for getting a ''speeding ticket''' !
I just wanted to see what you guys thought and if anyone has
been in a similar situation ? I do not believe I was speeding,
it was the motorway and I was in a hire vehicle, little annoyed
and not sure what, if anything, I could do to challenge this.
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks all
#Post#: 27663--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
DIR By: 666
Date: June 27, 2024, 4:56 am
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You cannot "challenge" a NIP.
You must name yourself as the driver (if you have not done so
already), and you will then be offered a fixed penalty and
possibly a speed awareness course. The only way to challenge the
allegation is to refuse those offers, and you will eventually
find yourself in court. Unless you have a viable defence, which
you have not mentioned, you will be found guilty, at
considerable cost.
#Post#: 27665--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
DIR By: littlebee
Date: June 27, 2024, 5:06 am
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--- Quote from: 666 link ---
>
> You cannot "challenge" a NIP.
>
> You must name yourself as the driver (if you have not done so
already), and you will then be offered a fixed penalty and
possibly a speed awareness course. The only way to challenge the
allegation is to refuse those offers, and you will eventually
find yourself in court. Unless you have a viable defence, which
you have not mentioned, you will be found guilty, at
considerable cost.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for your response, appreciated.
As these were variable speed cameras on the motorway and speed
limit changed a few times, can I not question the credibility of
the speed cameras (for example are they accurate) ? and with the
constant speed changes it created an environment of confusion,
for example for one phase of the journey, the limit was 70,
reduced to 50, then 40 and then up again to 60 within a 10 mile
range - my point is there were constant changes to speed limits.
And Im guessing on that particular day many others may have
faced similar frustration and could have also received a NIP.
Hope that makes sense.
#Post#: 27668--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
DIR By: FuzzyDuck
Date: June 27, 2024, 5:47 am
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This is a normal part of driving the UK motorway system
nowadays, complaining about it won't get you off. Likewise just
saying you tink the recorded speed is wrong won't work, you have
to prove it was wrong.
#Post#: 27670--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
DIR By: The Rookie
Date: June 27, 2024, 6:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: littlebee link ---
>
> I've just received a fine from the hire company for getting a
''speeding ticket''' !
>
--- End Quote ---
I presume you mean an admin charge from them, for the admin of
replying to the NIP (well S172 request on the same piece of
paper) with your details?
Perfectly normal.
--- Quote from: littlebee link ---
>
> As these were variable speed cameras on the motorway and speed
limit changed a few times, can I not question the credibility of
the speed cameras (for example are they accurate) ?
>
--- End Quote ---
Question the 'credibility' no, of course you are free to
question the accuracy by declining any out of court resolution
offered (course or fixed penalty) and then defending it court.
But if you fail to cast 'reasonable doubt' (and odds on you will
fail) it will cost you about £1000 for exercising that right
versus circa £100 for the out of court resolutions you are
certain to be offered. Unless you can identify specific issues
you may be able to use in a defence, it's foolish to just 'hope'
you can find something.
#Post#: 27695--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
DIR By: littlebee
Date: June 27, 2024, 8:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: The Rookie link ---
>
> [quote author=littlebee link=topic=2346.msg27662#msg27662
date=1719480438]
> I've just received a fine from the hire company for getting a
''speeding ticket''' !
>
--- End Quote ---
I presume you mean an admin charge from them, for the admin of
replying to the NIP (well S172 request on the same piece of
paper) with your details?
Perfectly normal.
--- Quote from: littlebee link ---
>
> As these were variable speed cameras on the motorway and speed
limit changed a few times, can I not question the credibility of
the speed cameras (for example are they accurate) ?
>
--- End Quote ---
Question the 'credibility' no, of course you are free to
question the accuracy by declining any out of court resolution
offered (course or fixed penalty) and then defending it court.
But if you fail to cast 'reasonable doubt' (and odds on you will
fail) it will cost you about £1000 for exercising that right
versus circa £100 for the out of court resolutions you are
certain to be offered. Unless you can identify specific issues
you may be able to use in a defence, it's foolish to just 'hope'
you can find something.
[/quote]
Yes, admin charge
OK - so they don't have to prove that the cameras they used were
accurate/valid and that the speed restriction wasn't an anomaly
on their part, before going to court ? Are these not reasonable
questions to raise, before going to court?
If the cameras say were not perfectly aligned they could give a
mis-reading ?
and question whether the speed restrictions were correctly
applied between the different areas where they had restrictions
in place - the speed restrictions seemed to be very inconsistent
across the stretch of the motorway, on the narrower temporary
lanes whilst motorway road works were taking place.
#Post#: 27696--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
DIR By: littlebee
Date: June 27, 2024, 8:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: FuzzyDuck link ---
>
> This is a normal part of driving the UK motorway system
nowadays, complaining about it won't get you off. Likewise just
saying you tink the recorded speed is wrong won't work, you have
to prove it was wrong.
>
--- End Quote ---
but its their equipment, speed cameras that could be at fault ?
Reading mis-match ? Surely they would need to validate all their
equipment was correctly configured and the speed restrictions
they had applied, which were inconsistent across the stretch of
the motorway, were correctly used ? The motorway lanes were made
narrower, there were road works going on mixed in with the
constant speed changes - made it unsafe for any driver.
#Post#: 27697--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
DIR By: The Rookie
Date: June 27, 2024, 8:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: littlebee link ---
>
> OK - so they don't have to prove that the cameras they used
were accurate/valid and that the speed restriction wasn't an
anomaly on their part, before going to court ? Are these not
reasonable questions to raise, before going to court?
>
> If the cameras say were not perfectly aligned they could give
a mis-reading ?
>
--- End Quote ---
No they don't have to prove anything at all before going to
court, the point of the out of court settlements is to allow
those who accept their guilt to receive some benefit in terms of
a lesser punishment, they only have to prove anything if you
take it to court but then you will pay for the pleasure if found
(0r then plead) guilty.
The cameras take a photo, if they are misaligned they wouldn't
have your reg number - if the speed detecting radar were
misaligned there wouldn't be a speed reading!
#Post#: 27698--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
DIR By: littlebee
Date: June 27, 2024, 8:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: The Rookie link ---
>
> [quote author=littlebee link=topic=2346.msg27695#msg27695
date=1719495496]
> OK - so they don't have to prove that the cameras they used
were accurate/valid and that the speed restriction wasn't an
anomaly on their part, before going to court ? Are these not
reasonable questions to raise, before going to court?
>
> If the cameras say were not perfectly aligned they could give
a mis-reading ?
>
--- End Quote ---
No they don't have to prove anything at all before going to
court, the point of the out of court settlements is to allow
those who accept their guilt to receive some benefit in terms of
a lesser punishment, they only have to prove anything if you
take it to court but then you will pay for the pleasure if found
(0r then plead) guilty.
The cameras take a photo, if they are misaligned they wouldn't
have your reg number - if the speed detecting radar were
misaligned there wouldn't be a speed reading!
[/quote]
Of course if the cameras were misaligned they could over or
under read the actual speed, so could be invalid in both
circumstances.
Appreciate you taking time to respond, thanks.
#Post#: 27703--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
DIR By: 666
Date: June 27, 2024, 9:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: littlebee link ---
>
>
>
> OK - so they don't have to prove that the cameras they used
were accurate/valid and that the speed restriction wasn't an
anomaly on their part, before going to court ? Are these not
reasonable questions to raise, before going to court?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
There is no forum or mechanism for raising questions "before
going to court".
The out-of-court settlements are offered specifically to save
both the police and the accused party the trouble and expense of
a court hearing in uncontested cases. You can raise the
questions, but the police aren't going to engage with you.
At court, the onus will be on you to prove that the camera was
not operating correctly (not "might have been"). How do you
intend to do that?
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