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#Post#: 27339--------------------------------------------------
Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledon
By: Keeper Date: June 24, 2024, 4:03 am
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Hello everyone,
I've been slapped with a PCN (as the keeper) for parking without
a permit on some private land (pdf attached)
Bit of context:
1. The driver went to a church hall as they often do for a local
residents association meeting at about 8pm at night.
2. While in the meeting the issue of parking / traffic in the
local area was discussed and it was mentioned that the church
had applied parking conditions on their site due to parents at
nearby schools taking all their spaces during pickup / drop-off
times.
3. The driver left the meeting and upon leaving, now being
aware, saw the signs (photo attached).
4. PCN was received and Plan A commenced. Local residents
association were helpful, explained that the driver was not the
only one caught out by the new rules and wrote to the Church. I
also wrote to the church, asking if they would be able to ask CE
to cancel the charge.
6. Church was not very helpful, responding directly to me that
the only course of action available is to appeal directly to
Creative Parking (aside: seems like a different company to Civil
Enforcement?)
I now think I should make some sort of appeal to CE as directed
on the notice. Something I noticed, if the appeal is
unsuccessful, I lose the chance to pay the reduced rate. Is that
normal?
HTML https://imgur.com/wqLkhDk
HTML https://imgur.com/LWCGksP
HTML https://imgur.com/lImFq5j
#Post#: 27342--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledo
n
By: The Rookie Date: June 24, 2024, 4:20 am
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We need to see the PCN (all of it) please, just personal details
redacted.
Creative and Civil are the same 'people' but different legal
companies, so if the signs are in one name and the PCN or
contract (with the Church) in another, they can't enforce it
(but will continue blindly anyway).
Pretty shitty behaviour by people claiming to be religious!
#Post#: 27343--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledo
n
By: Keeper Date: June 24, 2024, 4:24 am
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[quote author=The Rookie link=topic=2323.msg27342#msg27342
date=1719220805]
We need to see the PCN (all of it) please, just personal details
redacted.
Creative and Civil are the same 'people' but different legal
companies, so if the signs are in one name and the PCN or
contract (with the Church) in another, they can't enforce it
(but will continue blindly anyway).
Pretty shitty behaviour by people claiming to be religious!
[/quote]
Thought I'd done it in original post but didn't enter correctly,
done now, thanks for the heads up!
And yes, don't get me started!
#Post#: 27368--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledo
n
By: b789 Date: June 24, 2024, 8:15 am
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The signs and the NtK (invoice) are in CE’s name.
If Creative Solutions is a separate registered company and the
landowner contract is with them and not CE, then it will depend
on how that contract is worded. You’re not going to get sight of
that, if you’re lucky, until POPLA and even then they will try
and get away with only a signed statement that the contract is
valid.
It may have to go all the way to court before they are forced to
reveal the contract with the landowner.
You may need to be more forceful with the church if they are the
landowner. Remind them that they are jointly and severally
liable for the actions of their agent and that should they take
the matter to court, they can be expected to called as a witness
and and be could named as a party to a Part 20 counterclaim.
The landowner should understand their liability and cannot
simply fob you off back to their agents.
#Post#: 27444--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledo
n
By: Keeper Date: June 25, 2024, 5:46 am
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Thanks for this advice
Realistically, what grounds could I have for a part 20?
I have a feeling that the Church will just not be interested -
do I have any course of action available with an appeal to CE?
Could I use the "Given that it's not paid for parking, the
driver did not rob you of any income - parking is 'free' anyway"
Or the "I don't have to tell you who the driver is"
Failing these, would you suggest that I just pay it, or do
something else?
#Post#: 27452--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledo
n
By: The Rookie Date: June 25, 2024, 6:34 am
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[quote author=Keeper link=topic=2323.msg27444#msg27444
date=1719312370]
Could I use the
1/ "Given that it's not paid for parking, the driver did not rob
you of any income - parking is 'free' anyway"
Or the
2/ "I don't have to tell you who the driver is"
3/ Failing these, would you suggest that I just pay it, or do
something else?
[/quote]
Numbered for answering
1/ No, what matters is whether the charge is commercially
justified (Ref the Supreme court ruling in Parking Eye v Beavis)
2/ That is correct, but then you may be liable as the Keeper if
they have met the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act
2012 (schedule 4). I can't see your PCN through my co. firewall
so can't tell you if they have or not.
3/ Lets get all the facts first, was the signage 'there to be
seen' so the driver should have been aware of them, do they
create a contract (detailed photo's needed).
#Post#: 27483--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledo
n
By: b789 Date: June 25, 2024, 10:44 am
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For now you need to get a generic appeal in so that you can get
a POPLA code. You don't have much time left for the appeal.
A simple appeal along these lines will get your rejection and
POPLA code:
[indent]Re PCN number:
I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I
deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making
a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client
landowner.
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no
assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I
require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You
must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you
contend was at the location on the material date as well as your
images of the vehicle.
If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in
response to this appeal must include the record of payments made
- showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for
the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.
If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your
evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the
landowner.[/indent]
#Post#: 27596--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledo
n
By: Keeper Date: June 26, 2024, 1:37 pm
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Thanks, have done this and will report back...
#Post#: 27607--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledo
n
By: DWMB2 Date: June 26, 2024, 2:25 pm
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The chances of them accepting the appeal are close to nil. As
b789 noted, the main purpose is to get you a code with which you
can then appeal to POPLA. With that in mind, there's little harm
in starting to consider your draft now.
#Post#: 27666--------------------------------------------------
Re: Civil Enforcement - No permit - Sacred Heart Church Wimbledo
n
By: Keeper Date: June 27, 2024, 5:07 am
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aaaand we're already there!
Received attached, along with photos of signage (same as mine
above plus this other one)
HTML https://imgur.com/twkSJs8
HTML https://imgur.com/PNJ6AzC
HTML https://imgur.com/U8TApNw
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