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#Post#: 27071--------------------------------------------------
Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3)
"Parked within a restricted area"
DIR By: tawnyess
Date: June 22, 2024, 1:45 am
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Hi, I am a cab driver who had a pickup on this road at the date
and time of the attached notice. I entered the area and tried to
find a bay on the right side of the road, but as you can see in
the pictures, all bays were full. At the same time, my passenger
had already opened the rear door to enter. This all happened
within 5-10 seconds. As I could not find any parking bays and
the passenger had already entered, I drove off. I have booking
details to prove I was there for that specific reason.
Now, I had a thought that if all it takes is 5 seconds to stop
on this road to receive a parking notice, isn't it possible for
someone within the premises or the parking company to book cabs
all day and dish out parking charges?
Anyway, I have seen the sign, which I have also attached, but
the lack of free parking bays and the passenger forcefully
entering the vehicle caused me to be stationary for a very short
period of time.
Any help with this would be highly appreciated.
HTML https://postimg.cc/ZWnq6Zzg
HTML https://postimg.cc/Pv13qN4w
#Post#: 27078--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3)
"Parked within a restricted area"
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: June 22, 2024, 4:34 am
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There are a few arguments you can run here - firstly, there is
no consideration offered by that sign (it doesn't offer you the
opportunity to park on certain terms, all it does is forbid) -
on that basis, no contract can be formed, and without a
contract, no money is owed.
Secondly, if the vehicle was only stopped for a few seconds,
there's a fair argument to be made that the driver was not
presented with a suitable opportunity to read the terms and
conditions on the sign. A driver must be given the opportunity
to acquaint himself with the terms and conditions on offer
before he can be bound by them... Even if the signage could form
a contract (which you will deny), the driver was not given
sufficient time to consider the signage.
Another point to raise: what is your relationship to the
vehicle? The wording of the notice suggests you are not the
registered keeper, is this a financed/leased vehicle?
#Post#: 27099--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3)
"Parked within a restricted area"
DIR By: tawnyess
Date: June 22, 2024, 6:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DWMB2 link ---
>
> There are a few arguments you can run here - firstly, there is
no consideration offered by that sign (it doesn't offer you the
opportunity to park on certain terms, all it does is forbid) -
on that basis, no contract can be formed, and without a
contract, no money is owed.
>
> Secondly, if the vehicle was only stopped for a few seconds,
there's a fair argument to be made that the driver was not
presented with a suitable opportunity to read the terms and
conditions on the sign. A driver must be given the opportunity
to acquaint himself with the terms and conditions on offer
before he can be bound by them... Even if the signage could form
a contract (which you will deny), the driver was not given
sufficient time to consider the signage.
>
> Another point to raise: what is your relationship to the
vehicle? The wording of the notice suggests you are not the
registered keeper, is this a financed/leased vehicle?
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for your response.
There are multiple signs posted everywhere on that road as you
enter. My intention was to enter, look for a bay and park. As no
bay was available and the passenger opening the door to enter,
it caused me to stop for a few seconds.
And yes the vehicle is a lease from a cab leasing company. I was
already made aware of the pcn by them but waited to post here
until I recieved the notice in my name.
What are strongest point I could mention in my appeal. I have
never recieved a private parking charger before so I'm not aware
of the appeal, rejection and further appeal process.
#Post#: 27106--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3)
"Parked within a restricted area"
DIR By: b789
Date: June 22, 2024, 7:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The notice is not PoFA compliant. Whether it is a NtK or an NtH,
only the unknown driver could be liable. You, the known hirer of
the vehicle must not identify the unknown driver.
Besides the fact that no contract can have been entered into
between the unknown driver and the PPC, what do you think you
have received? It is simply a speculative invoice for an alleged
breach of (no) contract from an unregulated private parking
company.
It is from a firm of ex-clamper thugs who are hoping you are
low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and will at some stage
capitulate and pay into their scam. Appealing it is unlikely to
result in success, either initially or at IAS stage.
If you have come here for advice, then you are not gullible.
Others will advise you on what to put in an appeal and IAS
appeal. I would suggest you simply ignore it and any subsequent
debt collector letters. They know that if the driver remains
unknown there is nothing they can do and even then, if the
drivers identity was revealed, unintentionally or otherwise,
they would not dare take it all the way to a judge.
Get on with your life and simply ignore all correspondence from
the scammers. If you ever receive a county court claim in the
next 6 years, come back for advice. A county court claim would
be to your advantage as the only independent arbiter in a scam
like this is a judge. They know it and would only file a claim
as part of their extortion attempt to get you to pay up. They’d
be confirming their intellectual malnourishment if they ever
took it all the way to a hearing.
The only thing to remember is if you change address in the next
6 years is to rectify your address for service with their DPO
and tell them to erase your old address.
#Post#: 27113--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3)
"Parked within a restricted area"
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: June 22, 2024, 8:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Whilst I understand b789's sentiment, I disagree with his
approach. PCM are a fairly litigious bunch, and are relatively
likely to take the matter to court. That doesn't mean you
shouldn't defend yourself, but in my view, there's always value
in an appeal. If nothing else, it shows the court you've taken
reasonable steps to dispute the matter before the courts
involvement in the matter.
If you come back once you receive a charge in your own name, I
can draft an appeal up for you if you wish.
#Post#: 27151--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3)
"Parked within a restricted area"
DIR By: tawnyess
Date: June 22, 2024, 1:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DWMB2 link ---
>
> Whilst I understand b789's sentiment, I disagree with his
approach. PCM are a fairly litigious bunch, and are relatively
likely to take the matter to court. That doesn't mean you
shouldn't defend yourself, but in my view, there's always value
in an appeal. If nothing else, it shows the court you've taken
reasonable steps to dispute the matter before the courts
involvement in the matter.
>
> If you come back once you receive a charge in your own name, I
can draft an appeal up for you if you wish.
>
--- End Quote ---
The letter I attached is in my name as the leasing company has
already forwarded my details after they recieved the initial
letter. A sample draft would be great and much appreciated.
#Post#: 27160--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3)
"Parked within a restricted area"
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: June 22, 2024, 2:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
My mistake. In which case, here's a suggestion. I am assuming
here that PCM did not send you any additional documents with the
notice? If they did let us know as the approach will be
different.
The draft doesn't raise any of the other issues I mentioned
about the actual 'parking' event. They won't be interested so
save those for court if it goes that far. The main purpose of
the initial appeal is just to show you're not an easy target,
and that you're getting advice.
[indent]Dear sirs,
I have received you Notice to Hirer [(PCN number)] for Vehicle
Registration Mark [VRM]. I am appealing in my capacity as the
vehicle hirer, having been nominated as such by [HIRE FIRM].
There is no obligation for me to name the driver at the time and
I will not be doing so.
I note that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the hirer,
using the provisions of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms
Act 2012 (“the Act”).
As a result of this, you are unable to recover the specified
charge from me, the hirer. As I do not
have liability for this charge, I am unable to help you further
with this matter. I therefore look
forward to your confirmation that no further action will be
taken against me regarding this charge. If you do take further
action, this will be rigorously defended.
Yours, [/indent]
#Post#: 27181--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3)
"Parked within a restricted area"
DIR By: tawnyess
Date: June 22, 2024, 4:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DWMB2 link ---
>
> My mistake. In which case, here's a suggestion. I am assuming
here that PCM did not send you any additional documents with the
notice? If they did let us know as the approach will be
different.
>
> The draft doesn't raise any of the other issues I mentioned
about the actual 'parking' event. They won't be interested so
save those for court if it goes that far. The main purpose of
the initial appeal is just to show you're not an easy target,
and that you're getting advice.
>
> [indent]Dear sirs,
>
> I have received you Notice to Hirer [(PCN number)] for Vehicle
Registration Mark [VRM]. I am appealing in my capacity as the
vehicle hirer, having been nominated as such by [HIRE FIRM].
There is no obligation for me to name the driver at the time and
I will not be doing so.
>
> I note that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the
hirer, using the provisions of Schedule 4 of the Protection of
Freedoms Act 2012 (“the Act”).
>
> As a result of this, you are unable to recover the specified
charge from me, the hirer. As I do not
> have liability for this charge, I am unable to help you
further with this matter. I therefore look
> forward to your confirmation that no further action will be
taken against me regarding this charge. If you do take further
action, this will be rigorously defended.
>
> Yours, [/indent]
>
--- End Quote ---
After hours of research I've found this post on another forum
regarding the same location. It seems they have been taken to
court and the OP won.
What is your take on this?
HTML https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5869044/pcn-at-high-point-village-hayes/p5
#Post#: 27182--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3)
"Parked within a restricted area"
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: June 22, 2024, 5:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The byelaws point is interesting - I wasn't immediately aware it
was railway land. I'll take a proper look tomorrow.
In the meantime, the fact the OP in that case won hopefully
shoes that there are strong grounds on which to defend this. The
points I mentioned above, the ones in that MSE thread, and any
others combined, should provide a sound defence.
#Post#: 27183--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3)
"Parked within a restricted area"
DIR By: b789
Date: June 22, 2024, 5:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I've dealt with similar complaints at this location previously.
There is a local who hides and then pops up to snap a photo to
get their reward. The location is definitely land under
statutory control. Therefore PoFA does not apply and liability
cannot be transferred from the unknown driver to the known
keeper as long as the keeper doesn't blab it.
That is why the NtK is not relying on PoFA. Only the driver is
liable. They have no idea who the driver is unless you tell
them.
Whilst you have been advised to appeal, I will place money on it
that you get nowhere with either the Plan B or Plan C appeals
with PCM or the IAS. Go ahead and fill your boots. Whatever you
do, you will end up beating this at Plan D stage...county court.
Hence my suggestion to save yourself time and effort and simply
wait for the claim form.
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