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#Post#: 25940--------------------------------------------------
PCN for "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or
clearway)" (Zipcar)
DIR By: Savas
Date: June 14, 2024, 3:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi all
Zipcar sent me an email stating "Heads up, you’ve received a
moving violation." After slowly figuring out what happened, it's
relating to stopping on a red route. If I could kindly get some
advice before I proceed.
A little background - basically as per the email with a link to
their policy, which states (link below) "If we can, we will
redirect the violation to you.", but this has not happened. In
fact, they've instantly paid for it on the 10th as per the PCN
challenge web page and the email came on the 13th, so I assume
there's not much I can do now in terms of challenging the PCN?
That's done, right?
My second question is, can I get some information and
understanding of this. As I am aware that I stopped during the
loading times due to our son was nonstop crying and not feeling
well. Not being familiar with the area and him feeling unwell,
possibly going to vomit and saying he needs to go to the toilet
I thought maybe there's no chance to find another place or
distance with the toddler would be very far, we looked for
boots, to buy Calpol and water for him as we planned to drive
far. I saw the McDonnals, so I thought they could go toilet
there also, but they never went there, they went ahead. Yes I
know this isn't technically loading, but having a child, nonstop
crying in my ear, my thought process couldn't function right and
thought it's best to stop.
Having a look at the map, there's a left turn ahead, closer to
the boots and a petrol station, but in that state, was not
thinking clearly, but my point is there were no intentions to
misuse the loading stop. I in fact saw the van behind me take
out a small box, hardly bulky item to I guess deliver and drive
off so seems kind of unfair. It was also a very long amount of
space so they could have at least added 1-2 spots for normal
parking.
I think there's been an error on Zipcar's side, I assume I had
at least a chance to challenge in consideration of the
circumstances. I'll send a message to them, but wanted some
advice and feedback here. I never knew the red route is so
strict as I stopped maybe once in my life on it.
Relevant links:
Zipcar linked policy in the email:
HTML https://support.zipcar.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/115008239608-Traffic-Violations
Google Map of the location:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/1pvvMe2AptjDmmgR9
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/Cd7vV7z8/download.jpg
HTML https://postimg.cc/Cd7vV7z8
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/WqNXkFft/download-1.jpg
HTML https://postimg.cc/WqNXkFft
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/yWsf5tYB/download-2.jpg
HTML https://postimg.cc/yWsf5tYB
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/DSnyb27H/screenshot-2024-06-14-084759.png
HTML https://postimg.cc/DSnyb27H
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/TK02VZww/screenshot-2024-06-14-084937.png
HTML https://postimg.cc/TK02VZww
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/mc6bqC7W/screenshot-2024-06-14-090539.png
HTML https://postimg.cc/mc6bqC7W
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/7CLHmmGN/screenshot-2024-06-14-090555.png
HTML https://postimg.cc/7CLHmmGN
#Post#: 26285--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or
clearway)" (Zipcar)
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 16, 2024, 12:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=738]Savas[/member] the bottom line is you should tell
Zipcar that the decision to pay the PCN was their commercial
decision, they were not required to make any payment, and if
they chose to do so voluntarily that's up to them and you will
not be compensating them.
As for the PCN, payment eliminated any chance of appeal so
that's the end of that. The reason why this is unlawful is that
under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, any contractual term that
purports to deprive a consumer of any legal right of redress can
be deemed unfair and invalid by a court.
Any terms and conditions from Zipcar that purport to give them
an unfettered right to pay a PCN and recharge you for the cost
is blatantly unfair.
If you show us what correspondence Zipcar has sent you, I'll
draft a reply for you to send back.
#Post#: 26397--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or
clearway)" (Zipcar)
DIR By: Savas
Date: June 17, 2024, 5:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi cp8759, thank you for getting back to me.
Here's the email if it helps, it pretty much links to the page I
provided on my first post:
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/rdt65txk/screenshot-2024-06-17-111702.png
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/SKgyF6KJ/screenshot-2024-06-17-111702.png
Apologies for not waiting longer, I thought nobody would be
interested as it's been paid and I would just get information so
I opened a ticket to Zipcar stating almost the same, but your
one is indeed more to the point and better. I could respond
further if they do not do anything about it, but this is what I
said:
--- Quote ---
> Hello
>
> On the 31/05/24 I rented one of your vehicles, however
unfortunately on the 13/06/24 I received an email stating "Heads
up, you’ve received a moving violation." with an attachment with
a PCN. I have also been charged £95 by Zipcar.
>
> As per the PCN letter and TFL online web page, I had the
ability and right to challenge the PCN, however Zipcar has paid
the PCN on the 10th and informed me on the 13th, removing the
ability to appeal/challenge.
>
> As per Zipcar's linked "violations policy" page:
>
>
HTML https://support.zipcar.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/115008239608-Traffic-Violations
>
> Which states "If we can, we will redirect the violation to
you. If we can't redirect it, we will pay the fine, along with
any late fees and bill the total to your account, provided that
there are no grounds to appeal."
>
> As per my attachment screenshot, the TFL website clearly
allowed me to challenge the PCN and I believe I had grounds for
appeal. Zipcar could have redirected it to me. The TFL link to
challenge now gives an error and no longer works because the
charge was paid. Paying is seen as admitting the ticket was
right.
>
> I can understand that your fee of £15 is clear regarding
forwarding me the penalty charge, however paying the charge
before allowing me to see or challenge does not correspond with
the policy stated up and is unfair.
>
> We had a none stop crying toddler and an emergency to stop was
needed. Being unfamiliar with the area, and no pay and displays
visible, I could not use my phone and felt it was the best place
to stop. There was the ability to stop for a maximum of 20
minutes for loading and unloading. TFL also allows for
challenging PCN's on mitigating circumstances and can make
discretion, however this was not done.
>
> I feel this is not fair how Zipcar have handled this.
>
> Attached:
> screenshot of their policy on their page zoomed in sections
"Can I dispute it?" and "What happens if I receive a ticket
after my reservation has ended?"
> screenshot of TLF page showing payment done and "challenge"
button.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 26485--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or
clearway)" (Zipcar)
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 17, 2024, 6:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=738]Savas[/member] that is probably fine for an initial
approach, if they come back demanding you pay then I'll draft a
legalistic response for you to send back.
#Post#: 27012--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or
clearway)" (Zipcar)
DIR By: Savas
Date: June 21, 2024, 12:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi [member=1]cp8759[/member], ZipCar finally responded today,
but not what I was hoping for.
If you could kindly draft a more legalistic response as you
mentioned. Or what do you suggest?
--- Quote ---
> Dear Savas,
>
> Thank you for your email.
>
> Allow me to clarify that as per the member contract that you
agreed to via using our service this states - 11.1 You are
responsible for any traffic violations incurred during your
reservation or as a result of your use of a Zipcar vehicle. &
11.4 Where a violation, incurred during the Member's reservation
period or after it as a result of failure to adhere to parking
regulations, is sent directly to Zipcar, Zipcar will either pay
the penalty/fee on behalf of the Member and then add the
penalty/fee to the Member's account - The right to appeal, or
transfer liability, on any traffic or parking charge issued by
any authority or body belongs to Zipcar and will be at Zipcar's
absolute discretion.
>
> This charge has been issued correctly, thus we are unable to
refund it.
>
> We have reviewed the PCN and are satisfied that this fine is
valid and have been issued correctly. At this stage, there's no
further actions we take regarding this matter. As the fine have
been settled with the issuing authorities and the costs applied
to your account, both the issuing authorities and we at Zipcar
consider this matter resolved.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> The Zipcar Team
--- End Quote ---
Oh by the way, I saw this thread, Not sure what happened with
this:
HTML https://web.archive.org/web/20230702175721/http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=130500&pid=1518544&mode=threaded&start=#entry1518544
Their supposed T&C they are quoting.
Zipcar Membership Contract | Zipcar
HTML https://www.zipcar.com/en-gb/membership-contract
Rules of Vehicle Use | Zipcar
HTML https://www.zipcar.com/en-gb/membership-contract/rules-of-vehicle-use
#Post#: 27033--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or
clearway)" (Zipcar)
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: June 21, 2024, 2:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Have you actually paid the charge from ZipCar?
Frankly, we're drowning in dismembered snippets. We don't need
websites or whatever, we need to know exactly what your Ts and
Cs provided.
From what you've posted their reply is incoherent.
If the ticket was issued as a result of your reservation, you
are responsible for it. Once we are notified about the ticket,
we will charge you a £15 processing fee. If we can, we will
redirect the violation to you. If we can't redirect it, we will
pay the fine, along with any late fees and bill the total to
your account, provided that there are no grounds to appeal. You
will be able to appeal the fine provided the issuing authority
allows you to and that you have valid grounds to do so. You will
be informed of the process via email.
Drivel.
If we can sets the broad context. This has nothing to do with
ZipCar, the condition is whether the authority would accept a
'redirection'. This is set out in the PCN under the 'hire
vehicle' grounds.
'If we cannot redirect' is not 'we can't be bothered' or 'we
didn't try'.
What's your standing as a customer e.g. regular, first time?
But as said by others, this has nothing to do with parking regs
at this stage or, IMO, the CRA which deals with the structure of
contractual relationships: from what you've posted this is pure
and simple them not complying with these conditions i.e. they
could have 'redirected' but didn't bother. You have no complaint
with the conditions, from what you've posted these are clear.
Did they try to redirect in accordance with clause **** which
obligates them to try to redirect?
If not, why not?
'If we can..' is not 'in our absolute discretion'.
#Post#: 27268--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or
clearway)" (Zipcar)
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 23, 2024, 9:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Here's my suggested response:
[indent]
Dear Zipcar,
Letter before action
I note you state that:
"The right to appeal, or transfer liability, on any traffic or
parking charge issued by any authority or body belongs to Zipcar
and will be at Zipcar's absolute discretion"
With respect, this is not the case and any terms and conditions
which purport to give Zipcar such absolute rights are unfair and
invalid. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 provides a list of unfair
terms in Part 2 of Schedule 1, and paragraph 20 of that schedule
at
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/schedule/2/paragraph/20<br
/>provides as follows:
[indent]
A term which has the object or effect of excluding or hindering
the consumer's right to take legal action or exercise any other
legal remedy, in particular by—
[indent]
(a) requiring the consumer to take disputes exclusively to
arbitration not covered by legal provisions,
(b) unduly restricting the evidence available to the consumer,
or
(c) imposing on the consumer a burden of proof which, according
to the applicable law, should lie with another party to the
contract.
[/indent]
[/indent]
Section 62(1) of the Act provides that "An unfair term of a
consumer contract is not binding on the consumer", therefore as
your purported term has the effect of excluding my right to
appeal the penalty charge to the independent tribunal, the term
is unfair and invalid under the Act. It may be news to you, but
an Act of Parliament takes precedence over your terms and
conditions.
You also say that "This charge has been issued correctly, thus
we are unable to refund it", but again with respect this is not
your decision to make, nor is it a decision for the issuing
authority. Only London Tribunals has the authority to decide
whether a penalty charge notice is issued correctly, you are not
the tribunal and you are simply not qualified to decide whether
the charge was correctly issued or not.
You were not under any legal obligation to pay anything as you
could have made representations to the issuing authority, if you
decided this was more hassle than it was worth that was your
commercial decision but that has nothing to do with me and I
will not be paying you a penny.
If you had made representations to the enforcement authority
requesting a transfer of liability then a new penalty charge
notice would have been issued to me and that would have been the
end of your involvement. As you have deprived me of any avenue
of appeal to the tribunal, I'm afraid you'll just have to take
the hit on this one.
If you do not issue a full refund within 14 days, I will issue
county court proceedings against you.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
#Post#: 27270--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or
clearway)" (Zipcar)
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 23, 2024, 9:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=738]Savas[/member] as far as the zipcar case on pepipoo
goes, we never heard back from the OP. We've actually never
found anyone who could be bothered to sue the hire company,
which is mostly why they get away with this nonsense.
#Post#: 27399--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or
clearway)" (Zipcar)
DIR By: Savas
Date: June 24, 2024, 2:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> What's your standing as a customer e.g. regular, first time?
>
--- End Quote ---
I would not quite say a regular, maybe now and again. If they
decide to terminate my account I wouldn't miss them to be
honest, I would say their loss.
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=738]Savas[/member] as far as the zipcar case on
pepipoo goes, we never heard back from the OP. We've actually
never found anyone who could be bothered to sue the hire
company, which is mostly why they get away with this nonsense.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you kindly for the draft, I've changed some parts as I
feel their support team do seem to be alright normally so hoping
for a easier outcome. I don't know a thing about sueing or
proceeding with court proceedings so if you're willing to guide
me or providing assistance, I could give it a go, if you believe
I have a case.
P.S. The notification email keeps going in my junk so I can't
see posts till I check from time to time.
Is this edit OK?
--- Quote ---
> Dear Zipcar,
>
> Letter before action
>
> I note you state that:
>
> "The right to appeal, or transfer liability, on any traffic or
parking charge issued by any authority or body belongs to Zipcar
and will be at Zipcar's absolute discretion"
>
> With respect, this is not the case and any terms and
conditions which purport to give Zipcar such absolute rights are
unfair and invalid. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 provides a list
of unfair terms in Part 2 of Schedule 1, and paragraph 20 of
that schedule at
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/schedule/2/paragraph/20<br
/>provides as follows:
>
>
> A term which has the object or effect of excluding or
hindering the consumer's right to take legal action or exercise
any other legal remedy, in particular by—
>
> (a) requiring the consumer to take disputes exclusively to
arbitration not covered by legal provisions,
> (b) unduly restricting the evidence available to the consumer,
or
> (c) imposing on the consumer a burden of proof which,
according to the applicable law, should lie with another party
to the contract.
>
> Section 62(1) of the Act provides that "An unfair term of a
consumer contract is not binding on the consumer", therefore as
your purported term has the effect of excluding my right to
appeal the penalty charge to the independent tribunal, the term
is unfair and invalid under the Act. An Act of Parliament takes
precedence over your terms and conditions.
>
> You also say that "This charge has been issued correctly, thus
we are unable to refund it", but again with respect this is not
your decision to make, nor is it a decision for the issuing
authority. Only London Tribunals has the authority to decide
whether a penalty charge notice is issued correctly, you are not
the tribunal and you are simply not qualified to decide whether
the charge was correctly issued or not.
>
> You were not required or under any legal obligation to pay
anything as you could have made representations to the issuing
authority, if you decided this was more hassle than it was worth
that was your commercial decision but that has nothing to do
with me and I should not have been charged for this decision.
>
> If you had made representations to the enforcement authority
requesting a transfer of liability then a new penalty charge
notice would have been issued to me and that would have been the
end of your involvement. As you have deprived me of any avenue
of appeal to the tribunal, I'm afraid that was ZipCar's decision
to do so, not mine.
>
> In consideration of the circumstances, I would have hoped
ZipCar would be understanding of the situation and at least have
redirected the PCN to me after giving me a chance to explain, as
per your website information
(
HTML https://support.zipcar.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/115008239608-Traffic-Violations)<br
/>which mentions "If we can, we will redirect the violation to
you", as it is clearly the case regarding this PCN could have
been redirected, which would have allowed me to appropriately
challenge, removing any involvement of ZipCar and with all due
respect, 'If we can..' is not similar to 'in our absolute
discretion'. Being a customer who has rented your vehicles quite
a few times and loyal customer, I believe I should have been
given the courtesy to appeal this PCN.
>
> If you do not issue a full refund within 14 days, I will issue
county court proceedings against you.
>
> Yours faithfully,
>
> Savas
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 27599--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN for "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or
clearway)" (Zipcar)
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 26, 2024, 1:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=738]Savas[/member] yes your edits are fine, and I'm more
than happy to help you with the county court proceedings if you
want to pursue this. Part of me suspects it is very unlikely
Zipcar will bother to defend such a small claim as it just
wouldn't be worth it.
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