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#Post#: 26471--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: ivanleo Date: June 17, 2024, 5:49 pm
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[quote author=peodude link=topic=2208.msg26391#msg26391
date=1718616917]
I don't think we necessarily need more representatives. As
admirable it is that people spend their free time helping other
people, i think that can coexist with self representation. After
all, it's only fairly recently, with the hard work of cp in
particular, that the majority of cases on Pepipoo were getting
representation.
[/quote]
The success rate for those who are represented is way, way
higher than self-represented litigants, probably over 90%.
We do lose the odd case here or there, but it tends to be the
odd exception where someone's taken on a marginal case or where
the discount was lost anyway so there was nothing to lose in
giving it a go.
Of course the vast majority of people never post anything at all
and just represent themselves based on arguments they've found
on here (or previously on pepipoo), but we have seen plenty of
cases where someone has represented themselves and they've lost
a winnable case. In fact in the last few days I've had two
people who contacted me because they were so confident of the
arguments they'd found that they'd taken it upon themselves to
represent others, and they lost.
Fundamentally I think anyone who would like to be represented
should be able to get representation.
Part of the reason why I like representing people is because I'm
naturally lazy: if I see a case I know a winning argument or
strategy for, it's far, far easier for me to run the argument
myself than to try and explain to a novice how to go about it:
it would take far too long and they wouldn't be as effective
anyway.
#Post#: 26505--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Hippocrates Date: June 18, 2024, 12:47 am
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Very recently I spoke with an appellant at the Tribunal who had
won a Cox Lane Bus Gate case. When I guessed it was that
location he asked if I were an adjudicator! Sitting in my usual
corner, with my laptop open, I just said I helped people. Quite
a few people I meet win their cases - I can't say how many.
Statistics, of course, are by their very nature open to an
elasticity of interpretation. 8) And many people haven't heard
of pepipoo or ftla.
As for "laziness", I cannot agree though I often question one's
psychological reasons for doing all this. :o :-\
I do believe in fate, especially when I consider a couple of
chance meetings in the last three years which have resulted in
some good publicity. More to follow in due course. ;)
#Post#: 34039--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Hippocrates Date: August 21, 2024, 7:55 am
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New Petitions Committee still not formed.
#Post#: 34046--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: dave-o Date: August 21, 2024, 8:56 am
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Agree that a tool to guide the person through the process and
determine timelines would be one of the best things to get more
greenhorns to enter the ring.
In the absence of an app (which will be prohibitively expensive)
a simple website after the style of a flow diagram could work.
e.g.:
Form A uses simple questions to identify if private or council,
if council it directs to Form C
Form C uses simple questions to determine which legislation it
is under
etc.
etc.
(e.g.) it has been identified that it is council, under TMA2004,
the person has received but not replied to a NTO, the NTO date
is XX/XX/XX.
The person can be advised that they have until XX/XX/XX to
submit an appeal to the council ("Add this to your phone
calendar now"), and that although it is likely a discount period
will be reoffered, it might not. etc. Host these documents
(xxx, xxx, xxx, xxx) with an image host using this guide, start
a post in this forum, ideally ASAP. Copy and paste this text in
your post: (the system will generate all of the known facts in a
standardised format so easy for forum members to see where it's
at)
This still relies on manual interaction on the forum but TBH it
seems to me like anything that gives auto-advice on appeals is
fraught with pitfalls.
This kind of thing could be done on a website, with pretty basic
HTML and JavaScript, and would require little development or
ongoing cost.
#Post#: 34201--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Hippocrates Date: August 22, 2024, 1:25 pm
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On my weekly visits to Furnival Street, I do it the
old-fashioned way - word of mouth. Actually, when next in Kos, I
will get a T shirt printed with ftla on it and wear that!
Serious. Three adjudicators have witnessed my "Licence to
Thrill" shirt. I did not show them the back: 007. But the
admin. staff have seen it.
#Post#: 34513--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: mdann52 Date: August 25, 2024, 5:54 am
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I did start work on such a piece of software in the past, but
quickly hit issues, lack of time etc and couldn't progress it
further. I guess the question is what do we want? A full case
management/tracking software, probably probably with "here's the
deadline for your appeal, and here's what's worked for that
location/code/authority before", or something much more
lightweight?
It's a lot of work to do and maintain voluntarily though, I
don't have enough experience of the intricacies of the
legislation to create a "quick steps" to identify issues with
the notices, or to flag up key cases etc. If people are willing
to work with me, I'm happy to revitilise the project, with the
caveat I'll only have a matter of hours a week to work on it so
it won't be a quick job.
#Post#: 35545--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Pastmybest Date: September 3, 2024, 4:04 pm
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For me, to much is done of forum when people represent. I can
understand the reason for this and am guilty of doing the same
when i have represented people. But the knowledge we have is
denied people coming here for help. We should endeavour to make
sure that the arguments being run are set out in every thread
#Post#: 36908--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Hippocrates Date: September 15, 2024, 6:39 am
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Lately I have witnessed several people conducting their own
appeals and winning. Anyways, I am having a special T shirt made
next month and will wear it at the Tribunal. ;D
#Post#: 36957--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Me and my boys Date: September 15, 2024, 3:47 pm
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I have lots of friends who always just pay up because they
believe it's risky to fight and just gets more expensive. Also
they do not have time to fight as it seems so complicated. If
it's possible to have general instructions? Info like, how many
people win, to make them believe it's possible and not too
risky. Encouragement to do so would help. Apps like the
neighbourhood app always say, it's not worth it, just pay up
:-\
#Post#: 38652--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: tasty_snacks Date: September 27, 2024, 6:28 pm
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Thought I'd add my two pennies to this conversation.
I've just had a CEL PCN appeal upheld, thanks entirely to advice
from this forum.
Years ago, when less risk averse, younger and crucially - had no
kids, mortgage nor a serious job and therefore had more time - I
would fight every ticket I received. With the help of Pepipoo,
and some self learning, I managed to win every single PCN
battle. Brilliantly, I also told family members and they to,
time willing, won several appeals.
I remember winning those appeals at The Angel, then going for a
celebratory pint each time at (I think?) The York, just up the
road from the appeals office. It was often easy. Rarely did the
issuing party turn up, and sometimes they didn't even send the
paperwork. They even on one occasion sent a representation for a
different offence, car and date....
I was always 99% sure I'd win going into that office.
Thing is, those days I lived in London, and could afford the
time to attend. Several years later, and faced the option of £60
- £100 versus the effort of going to London, even to win, the
fine feels like the sensible choice.
It was only really that I found myself hacked off with the
injustice of it all that I Google'd Pepipoo after all these
years and followed the paper trail here.
I guess my point is this - busy people (which is most people)
would rather through gritted teeth suck up a penalty. They don't
know what recourse they have, and even when they do, it feels
too much of an effort.
I've confused council issued notices with private notices above
purposely, because therein lies a problem. The whole system
needs full reform, with a single penalty fare set by central
Government, with a single appeal place for both private and
council issued PCNs. It's wholly ridiculous to expect the
average motorist to be aware of their rights dependent upon
where and when they received a PCN.
Ah, but how can Government impose a flat fine for PCNs I hear
the cowboys cry? Easy, amend the act to state that EVERY issuing
body must be a regulated body and therefore adhere to centrally
set fines and standards, with centrally set appeals processes.
No sign up, no authority. And penalties for organisations that
issue PCNs who haven't signed up. If a vehicle is parked
illegally and can't be removed, it's a police matter (which will
swiftly get the police on board with encouraging those that
issue PCNs to sign up).
Returning to the issue of whether or not a recipient of a PCN
chooses to challenge - under a regulated agreement, the
appellant is offered recourse at the collective expense of those
who (must) join the regulated scheme. This has to follow a
process of issuance, and right to appeal. If the appellant wins,
it is an the expense of the issuing company (including travel
costs, time off work etc). You have to make it clear, and cost
neutral, for the person who receive the ticket. If it worked
properly, you could even have a triage centre (which is where
the more experienced members here could monetise it) to inform
the recipient of the likely chances of success - which is
essentially what you good folk here do for free.
Ultimately, IMO, people just don't have the time to fight. But
if provided with a free recourse system that was made abundantly
clear from the offset, with the option of triage to weed out the
no hopes, and if that was regulated to make sure it was clear on
every single PCN, that's the only way more would be encouraged.
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