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#Post#: 26192--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: sparx Date: June 15, 2024, 3:56 pm
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[quote author=cp8759 link=topic=2208.msg26148#msg26148
date=1718461274]
If we could have some sort of case management tool to ensure
people don't miss deadlines or otherwise mess up the process,
that would be helpful, though I don't think any of the current
large language models can provide any meaningful drafting, the
few examples I've seen have been a complete car crash (in one
recent case where a client send me a draft written for him by
Chat GPT, I explained why it was all wrong and his response was
"that's the last time I'm using AI to draft an appeal").
I don't think something like this could ever be commercially
viable in the sense of making a commercial return, the sums in
issue are just too small (and if you went to market with an RFP,
I very much doubt you'd get any quotes under 100k).
But then if someone has the time and skill to write it in the
first place, the ongoing run costs should be fairly minimal and
I'm happy to chip in to any hosting costs, to the extent that
advertising revenue can't cover it.
The other issue is maintaining he system, we don't want to have
something like the old NIP wizard on pepipoo which wasn't
updated for 10+ years.
[/quote]
What would you like from a system such as that? If you could
draft some "necessity" and "nice to have" features I could have
a quick go at seeing how feasible it is?
Alternatively, I am not sure if it exists or even if you can use
addons on CAF but there might be a "per user" calendar
plugin/addon which would allow you to set events per user on
certain dates (and then notify them)?
#Post#: 26216--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: ivanleo Date: June 15, 2024, 7:24 pm
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The two most basic of inputs would need to be:
1) The Act of Parliament under which the PCN falls (which is
given on the face of the PCN or Notice to Owner), and
2) The stage at which the PCN is.
You'd want to incorporate instructions based on all the various
permutations listed at
HTML https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process<br
/>and
HTML https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/how-to-appeal/<br
/>(the most common being TMA 2004, LLA&TFL Act 2003 and LLA Act
1996) depending on whether it's a roadside PCN, CCTV PCN, drive
away PCN etc. You'd want the system to explain that for their
type of PCN, they can make informal / formal representations as
applicable.
You'd also want to explain that at least as far as England &
Wales is concerned, pretty much all local authorities except
Nottingham and (for CAZ PCNs only) Birmingham, the discount is
reoffered at the formal reps stage if representations are made
within 14 days of the date of issue of the notice to owner or
postal PCN.
And then you'd want to cover all the scenarios I have written
these guides for:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-pcn/
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-l-1805/
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-the-road-user-charging-schemes-(penalty-charges-adjudication-/
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-notic/
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/ground-2-witness-statements-statutory-declarations-accepted-by-the-traffic-enfor/
As for the last guide, we've not got a version for the Traffic
Penalty Tribunal as that scenario has not come up yet.
That's the most basic structure that would at least explain the
procedural side of things.
Of course one major problem we have is that most people come to
us with a half-baked story and they misunderstand / misdescribe
what's happened or what documents they've received, which is why
we always ask to just see the paperwork and mostly ignore what
people tell us they think has happened (at least until after
we've seen the documents).
#Post#: 26272--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Hippocrates Date: June 16, 2024, 10:49 am
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This thread appears to have gone off topic. ;D
I simply asked how to encourage more people to fight.
I will contact one of the cameramen involved with Parking Mad
some years ago. MrMustard and I appeared on separate programmes.
Meanwhile, I am doing my best to get stories published and
getting moving traffic legislation changed:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/tommy-poirot-to-expose-all-london-councils'-bus-lane-enforcement/msg26266/#msg26266
And my petition which now needs to resuscitated due to the
General Election.
My petition:
Create the right to examine council witnesses in moving traffic
contraventions
To homogenise London Bus Lane legislation with Moving Traffic
legislation. Para 7(6)
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/schedule/1/enacted<br
/>needs to be incorporated into The London Local Authorities and
Transport for London Act 2003.
Millions of Penalty Charge Notices are sent out to motorists
each year in London. It is a matter of record that, in the cases
overturned in bus lane legislation, the training of the officers
concerned is somewhat questionable as is their actual knowledge
of the law. And, indeed, the lack of proper certification of
their camera equipment. It is a human right to have the facility
to question one's accusers about their evidence and the lack of
homogeneity concerning these two legislations is stark and
unfair.
#Post#: 26279--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: ivanleo Date: June 16, 2024, 11:34 am
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[member=24]Hippocrates[/member] I think the key issue is having
willing OPs is not enough, we need to be able to support them.
The best way IMO is to get more willing representatives. Maybe
you can find a law student who fancies some real-life litigation
experience?
#Post#: 26281--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: John U.K. Date: June 16, 2024, 11:52 am
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[quote]To homogenise London Bus Lane legislation with Moving
Traffic legislation. - Hippocrates' petition.[/quote]
I think that this hints at an alternative way forward. As Mr
Mustard & CP point out above (replies#9 & #11), the disparity in
legislation governing the various types of PCN and ensuing
enforcement needs urgently addressing.
Might it be fruitful to collect together from the experts here
what each considers the most important changes needed? For
example the blanket rejection by EAs of OoT statements, or
enforcing 'bus lanes when.where no 'buses are running.
Adjudicators could have powers to direct EAs to make
improvements to signage and markings and to consider mitigation.
Then perhaps collaborating with, e.g., R.A.C. and the A.A. in
assembling a case for the new government.
Standardising the enforcement process might makle it easier for
recipients of PCNs to appeal and encourage local authorities to
be less trigger-happy with the 'computer say no' button.
#Post#: 26283--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Hippocrates Date: June 16, 2024, 11:59 am
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Exactly my thoughts re new government - the time is right and
ripe. And homogenisation. Been saying for it years and even
mentioned to an adjudicator some months ago.
#Post#: 26284--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: ivanleo Date: June 16, 2024, 12:02 pm
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[quote author=John U.K. link=topic=2208.msg26281#msg26281
date=1718556741]
[quote]To homogenise London Bus Lane legislation with Moving
Traffic legislation. - Hippocrates' petition.[/quote]
I think that this hints at an alternative way forward. As Mr
Mustard & CP point out above (replies#9 & #11), the disparity in
legislation governing the various types of PCN and ensuing
enforcement needs urgently addressing.
[/quote]
Be careful what you wish for. If the TMA 2004 applied across the
board, many of the arguments we use would disappear.
#Post#: 26286--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: John U.K. Date: June 16, 2024, 12:18 pm
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Be careful what you wish for. If the TMA 2004 applied across the
board, many of the arguments we use would disappear. CP8759
Which is why I suggested a collective approach to deciding what
needs changing, what needs standardizing, what needs retaining
and I would add a very considered approach to the law of
unintended consequences.
#Post#: 26298--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Hippocrates Date: June 16, 2024, 1:56 pm
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All I wish for is for the incorporation of para. 7(6) into
moving traffic law. As cp8759 discussed with me the last time we
met, the whole system may well collapse, which is not my
objective. ;D Frankly, the discrepancies re dates etc can be
kept as the clowns swap and change anyway. In the last year, RBK
have had three incarnations of their bus lane PCNs.
#Post#: 26391--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: peodude Date: June 17, 2024, 4:35 am
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I don't think we necessarily need more representatives. As
admirable it is that people spend their free time helping other
people, i think that can coexist with self representation. After
all, it's only fairly recently, with the hard work of cp in
particular, that the majority of cases on Pepipoo were getting
representation.
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