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#Post#: 25898--------------------------------------------------
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Hippocrates Date: June 13, 2024, 3:36 pm
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As you all know, I have been in this "game" for many years. The
administrative staff at London Tribunals fondly describe me as
one of The Three Musketeers. (The portly one) :D The other two -
though younger* - are more prolific than I. No problem. ;D
Please: how do we get more people to fight their tickets?
*Only slightly as far as one is concerned. ;) The other guy's
reputation - The Wizard - precedes him. :)
#Post#: 25904--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: ivanleo Date: June 13, 2024, 4:29 pm
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[member=24]Hippocrates[/member] and who is going to conduct all
these additional appeals?
A few (very few) people can do it themselves, but in the vast
majority of cases if you leave people to their own devices they
run a serious risk of messing things up, we've seen that pattern
play out repeatedly:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/warwickshire-cc-pcn-code-24-not-within-markings-of-bay-lakin-road-warwick/msg3575/#msg3575
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/walking-pushing-my-bike-in-a-restricted-zone/msg20666/#msg20666
HTML https://web.archive.org/web/20230704113549/http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149680&mode=linear
I just had someone contact me yesterday and they'd messed things
up so much they had a charge certificate they had no grounds to
challenge, at least that was resolved quickly.
There is certainly no shortage of appellants and unless you're
going to set up a representatives training scheme and recruit
some more people to help, I'm not sure having the site flooded
with loads of threads nobody has the time to investigate
properly and in a timely manner would be that beneficial.
I'm already operating at full capacity (despite the fact that I
now charge everyone), I'm not sure Derek has much spare capacity
either. If you want to offer your services to more motorists on
here or on the facebook group, be my guest!
#Post#: 25949--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: slapdash Date: June 14, 2024, 4:34 am
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The fact that so many foul things up is a damning indictment of
a hugely loaded system.
It really ought to the case that things should be simple enough
for an average individual to be able to go through the process
without hindering themselves by procedural missteps.
#Post#: 25965--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Hippocrates Date: June 14, 2024, 5:31 am
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The impulses behind my question were as follows:
1. To encourage more motorists to fight their tickets - the
general public. I did not wish to imply any direct involvement
of this site or any individuals either.
2. To cut through the general apathy of most recipients - for
whatever reason - who simply pay up at the first stage.
I have some ideas which would utilise media etc.
On a personal note, of course I am available to do more appeals
if requested. I also know my limitations and strengths. ;) And,
I am improving. 8)
#Post#: 25970--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Hippocrates Date: June 14, 2024, 6:07 am
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[quote author=slapdash link=topic=2208.msg25949#msg25949
date=1718357685]
The fact that so many foul things up is a damning indictment of
a hugely loaded system.
It really ought to the case that things should be simple enough
for an average individual to be able to go through the process
without hindering themselves by procedural missteps.
[/quote]
I have a saying: "To win an appeal is like climbing Mt. Everest.
To achieve costs is like climbing Mt Everest without oxygen
equipment."
Even when I think I have a watertight case, one never knows what
will happen. I did a bus lane case in March and had to tell the
adjudicator the law dictates that the appeal must be allowed.
The hearing was far too long.
#Post#: 26128--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: mrmustard Date: June 15, 2024, 7:32 am
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I think that the problems include:
1 complex legislation, it took me a year or two to get up to
speed. During that time you could lose many PCNs and feel like
giving up (as it happens I won my first 38 tribunal cases and
nowadays I lose more if I get the 'wrong' adjudicator)
2 a shortage of people who have the time, ability &
inclination to assist strangers with their problems. I am
struggling to keep up now it is summer with my 50-100 PCN
workload as I am trying to be away cycling every other week.
3 the economics of trying to run a business to do this
4 Apathy (as already stated) and here is an example of someone
who wants to beat their second moving traffic PCN at the same
location but doesn't really want to put in any effort.
Hi Derek,
Sorry for the delayed response.
I have just confirmed and I believe that the second
contravention happened before the first letter was received so
there was no notice, if that makes sense.
His mother is a resident of the area, hence why the driver was
there on multiple occasions. I believe there are resident cards
available for this but they do not own one.
Please let me know what you think, happy to appeal it if you
think it is the better option.
The signs are there to tell you where and how to drive not PCNs.
That said that multiple PCNs argument sometimes works but won't
for me as I give councils hell so kindness in return is not
likely.
I do not wish to volunteer to make representations for this PCN
but nothing stops Redacted from doing so (they must be in his
name).
Best regards
Derek
This exchange was during the week. The PCN is now paid.
I think a possible solution is software which helps people
follow due process, suggests possible challenge wordings and
ensures they don't miss a deadline and could have online experts
who contribute as on FTLA, possibly for a small fee. Who has the
skillset to write it, what would it cost and can it be
commercialised on a pay per pcn basis?
#Post#: 26133--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Hippocrates Date: June 15, 2024, 7:56 am
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I think a possible solution is software which helps people
follow due process, suggests possible challenge wordings and
ensures they don't miss a deadline and could have online experts
who contribute as on FTLA, possibly for a small fee. Who has the
skillset to write it, what would it cost and can it be
commercialised on a pay per pcn basis?
I'll ask my son. He currently writes software for passport
control in USA etc. You met him once at The Angel in our early
days. :)
#Post#: 26136--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: Southpaw82 Date: June 15, 2024, 8:07 am
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Depending on how much it would cost to deploy such a programme,
does it need to be commercially viable? Much as support for FTLA
would be appreciated, it is currently financed by me (others do
much of the running of the site though).
#Post#: 26148--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: ivanleo Date: June 15, 2024, 9:21 am
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If we could have some sort of case management tool to ensure
people don't miss deadlines or otherwise mess up the process,
that would be helpful, though I don't think any of the current
large language models can provide any meaningful drafting, the
few examples I've seen have been a complete car crash (in one
recent case where a client send me a draft written for him by
Chat GPT, I explained why it was all wrong and his response was
"that's the last time I'm using AI to draft an appeal").
I don't think something like this could ever be commercially
viable in the sense of making a commercial return, the sums in
issue are just too small (and if you went to market with an RFP,
I very much doubt you'd get any quotes under 100k).
But then if someone has the time and skill to write it in the
first place, the ongoing run costs should be fairly minimal and
I'm happy to chip in to any hosting costs, to the extent that
advertising revenue can't cover it.
The other issue is maintaining he system, we don't want to have
something like the old NIP wizard on pepipoo which wasn't
updated for 10+ years.
#Post#: 26149--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?
By: ivanleo Date: June 15, 2024, 9:26 am
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[quote author=mrmustard link=topic=2208.msg26128#msg26128
date=1718454766]
1 complex legislation, it took me a year or two to get up to
speed. During that time you could lose many PCNs and feel like
giving up (as it happens I won my first 38 tribunal cases and
nowadays I lose more if I get the 'wrong' adjudicator)
[/quote]
That's where I think a pupilage system could help: rather than
letting people go off on their own, we would need novice
representatives to act under the supervision of an established
representative. It would be much easier for someone to learn how
to go about things if they're simply told how things work / what
legal arguments to use / what strategy is known to be effective,
rather than having to work everything out for themselves from
scratch.
If someone can find me a willing and capable pupil, I'd be more
than happy to train someone up.
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