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#Post#: 26928--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: RhysGrif
Date: June 20, 2024, 4:33 pm
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--- Quote from: NighSoul link ---
>
> You may revise the wording of the communication to ensure it
can be used as evidence if the council does not cooperate and
you need to present this letter to the Ombudsman or make a claim
for a breach.
>
>
>
>
> Dear Parking Services
>
> I refer to the above matter and the applicable PCN enforcement
timetable you recently provided. I emphasise that this is your
evidence.
>
> My frustration at being pursued for a penalty is now
compounded by my annoyance at the council's blatantly unlawful
demand, which should have been evident with proper oversight.
Your timeline is attached, from which I have concluded the
following:
>
> An entry indicates that a Notice to Owner (NTO) was dated and
posted on 25 Oct.
> Another entry shows a second NTO was produced, dated, and
posted on 26 Oct.
> An entry states a Charge Certificate (CC) was produced, dated,
and posted on 27 Nov.
> An entry shows payment of £70 received on 27 Nov.
> An entry shows a CC posted on 27 Nov., citing and relying upon
the NTO issued on 26 Oct., which, based on the council's
evidence, was an unlawful notice.
> A copy of the NTO dated 26 Oct. is provided in the council's
evidence.
> A copy of a receipt issued by the Council for payment of £70
dated 26 November 2023.
>
> The following points are evident from the above:
>
> a. The unlawful act of issuing a second NTO on 26 Oct.
> b. Even if the CC was legitimate, the council's legal right to
demand the surcharge penalty arose only on 29 Nov. when the CC
(posted on 27 Nov.) was served.
> c. The council acted unlawfully by refusing payment of the
extant, unsurcharged penalty on 27 Nov.
> d and pursuing the owner based on an unlawful NTO and CC.
>
> The Enforcement Agent has taken an unlawful money transfer of
£514 under the pain of removing my car. I will now file an Out
of Time application to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.
>
> Given the council's actions to date, I expect a successful
outcome and anticipate that the council will not object to my
application. However, considering the above, it would be in the
authority's best interest to cancel the Charge Certificate and
Order for Recovery now rather than referring the matter to the
adjudicator.
>
> In this context, having been made aware of your actions,
should the council object to my submission and it be refused, I
will refer this matter to your Complaints Procedure and, if
necessary, the Ombudsman. Such action could only be seen as a
failure to discharge the council's public duty to act fairly and
reasonably.
> My bank details for the return of the money are as follows
[provide bank details here]. Once the money is returned, I will
consider the matter solved.
>
> I have copied your enforcement agent for their information.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hello,
Am I sending an email to Swansea Council & sending the ‘OOT’ &
‘Witness Statement’ to the TEC
#Post#: 26942--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: June 21, 2024, 3:04 am
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OP, it's not really 'either' 'or'
You have paid the debt and this closes procedural matters unless
you re-open them by submitting an OOT. There is no set time for
this.
So, you could write to the authority and give them, say, 7 days
in which to confirm that the sums paid to the enforcement agents
will be refunded in full failing which you would submit an OOT.
TEC's normal practice is to accept an OOT unless the authority
object.
I see 3 scenarios:
1. They realise their error and refund the debt.
2. They continue to act as if they were judges in their own
cause and do not comply and object to your OOT, which would
probably be refused;
3. They do nothing.
1. They save themselves embarrassment which would arise with an
adjudication hearing.
2. You receive their objection and raise the matter through the
council's complaints procedure. IMO, an objection in light of
the irrefutable facts puts them in the realm of failure to
comply with their public law duty to act fairly and has nothing
to do with enforcement of road traffic contraventions.
3. TEC approve your OOT at which point the authority must refer
the matter to the adjudicator and any hearing would IMO carpet
them for abusing their power.
My draft would need amending depending on which route you choose
to take, I leave this to you.
#Post#: 26949--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: June 21, 2024, 5:45 am
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I'd pursue both routes. The longer the delay with submitting the
OOT, as that is the procedure the law provides for the
circumstances, the more chance there is that the Council will
claim that the PCN has been closed by the OP.
It's always best with Councils and PCNs to follow the defined
procedures.
It's true that the Council might well oppose your OOT. However
the processing of your OOT at the TEC is liable to take at least
two and as much as eight weeks. Sending the complaint to the
Council should be processed faster than that.
The wording on the OOT application needs to be optimised.
Assuming the OOT is granted then the Order for Recovery would be
revoked and the Charge Cert cancelled. Since the PCN itself has
been paid the matter should be closed. I'm not sure that the
case would be referred to the Adjudicator. Only perhaps if the
Council continue to claim that payment was late.
#Post#: 27257--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 23, 2024, 9:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: RhysGrif link ---
>
> However, slightest possibility there is a street 10 mins away
from my address which ends in ‘Street’ and my address ends in
‘Road’. Both address have same name and same 4 starting post
codes ‘**11’
>
> My house has received postage from similar street name before
so it’s not an impossible scenario.
>
--- End Quote ---
Have you got any evidence of this, such as misdelivered letters
for the other address? Have you ever made a complaint to Royal
Mail about this?
I'm Neil's colleague who was meant to look at this a few
evenings ago, unfortunately I've only just got to this. What
strikes me here is that the key reason why the various statutory
notices have gone missing has not been established, and the all
the documents were posted to the same exact address as given on
the V5C, then an OOT is more likely than not to be rejected. You
can of course hope that the council simply doesn't object, but
if they do then you'd be in a spot of bother as you'd have to
risk more money to request a review by a district judge.
TLDR: The fact that the council is very, very wrong does not
mean they won't successfully object to the OOT.
#Post#: 27513--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: RhysGrif
Date: June 25, 2024, 3:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> OP, it's not really 'either' 'or'
>
> You have paid the debt and this closes procedural matters
unless you re-open them by submitting an OOT. There is no set
time for this.
>
> So, you could write to the authority and give them, say, 7
days in which to confirm that the sums paid to the enforcement
agents will be refunded in full failing which you would submit
an OOT. TEC's normal practice is to accept an OOT unless the
authority object.
>
> I see 3 scenarios:
>
> 1. They realise their error and refund the debt.
> 2. They continue to act as if they were judges in their own
cause and do not comply and object to your OOT, which would
probably be refused;
> 3. They do nothing.
>
> 1. They save themselves embarrassment which would arise with
an adjudication hearing.
> 2. You receive their objection and raise the matter through
the council's complaints procedure. IMO, an objection in light
of the irrefutable facts puts them in the realm of failure to
comply with their public law duty to act fairly and has nothing
to do with enforcement of road traffic contraventions.
> 3. TEC approve your OOT at which point the authority must
refer the matter to the adjudicator and any hearing would IMO
carpet them for abusing their power.
>
> My draft would need amending depending on which route you
choose to take, I leave this to you.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hello,
I have contact swansea council for an email address for their
parking services depart as I can't find one online. I will
contact them and then if that fails fill out an OOT
#Post#: 27561--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: RhysGrif
Date: June 26, 2024, 8:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
Swansea council have sent me the following:
‘Good afternoon
Thank you for your email.
We have reviewed your case and can confirm the following:
A Notice to Owner was sent for printing and posting on
25/10/2023 however, due to an internal issue it appears that the
documentation failed to print. For this reason, the Notice to
Owner was requeued and subsequently printed and posted on
26/10/2023 to the address provided to us by the DVLA as being
that of the registered keeper, which was still within the legal
timescales to serve a Notice to Owner.
The Notice to Owner documentation advised that a payment of
£70.00 was outstanding to be paid within 28 days of the date the
Notice was deemed served, which in this case was no later than
25/11/2023. The Notice also advised that failure to make payment
before the end of the 28 days period would result in the penalty
increasing by 50% taking the total to £105.00.
Due to a payment of £70.00 not being received until 26/11/2024
which was after the 28 day period, the case progressed as an
underpayment and we issued a Charge Certificate requesting the
outstanding balance of £35.00 (£105.00 minus £70.00 received).
As no further payment or correspondence was received in response
to the Charge Certificate, the case continued to progress and we
issued an Order for Recovery (TE3 TE9) on 20/12/2023 which
incurred further charges.
Due to no payment or completion of the TE3 and TE9 being made
within the statutory timescales the case was registered for a
warrant of control and was subsequently passed to Andrew James
Enforcement on 09/02/2024 to recover the outstanding debt plus
Enforcement Fees.
Having reviewed your case in full Swansea Council are satisfied
that no procedural impropriety has occurred and that the case
has progressed correctly. For this reason, we regret that we
will be unable to cancel the Charge Certificate and Order for
Recovery or recall the case from the Enforcement Agent and issue
any refunds of payments made.
Your only options at this late stage are to either, lodge an Out
Of Time Witness Statement with the Traffic Enforcement Centre
(TEC) for your case to be reviewed by a Court Officer if one of
the four options on the witness statement apply to your case or
your case will remain closed as full payment has now been
received by the Agent.
Here are the four options you could choose from:
* I did not receive the Notice to Owner / Penalty Charge Notice
* I appealed against the Local Authority’s decision to reject
my representation, within 28 days of service of the rejection
notice, but have had no response.
* I made representations about the penalty charge to the
enforcing authority concerned within 28 days of the service of
the Notice to Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice.
* The Penalty Charge Notice was paid in full.
To request the relevant documentation to lodge an Out of Time
Witness Statement you would be required to contact TEC on 0300
123 1059 (select option 6) or download the relevant forms (TE7 &
TE9) online at www.gov.uk (see direct links below)
HTML https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-te9-witness-statement-unpaid-penalty-charge-parking
HTML https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-te7-application-to-file-a-statement-out-of-time-extension-of-time-parking
The completed forms must be returned to the Traffic Enforcement
Centre at the address they provide or via email to
tec@justice.gov.uk .
Where possible we would request that you please provide
supporting documentary evidence with your statement.
Once we are in receipt of notification from TEC that an Out Of
Time Witness Statement has been lodged on this case, we will
place the case on hold until a decision has been made regarding
this matter.
Please be advised, should no action be taken, the case will
remain active with the Enforcement Agent and further charges may
be incurred.
Cofion/Regards’
#Post#: 27565--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: June 26, 2024, 9:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
So the key point is what did their system ask for when you made
payment ? Their not printing the NtO on their first attempt
hints at system problems.
#Post#: 27566--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: June 26, 2024, 9:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Great news.
Write back.
Thank them for replying so quickly and clarifying that a NTO was
posted on THURSDAY 26 October 2023. However, you can see that
the error made by the authority in 2023 has been repeated in
their last reply with their inability to calculate 28-day
periods as follows:
Date of posting: Thursday 26 Oct.
Date deemed served: Monday 30th October.
Latest date of the 28-day period beginning on date of service:
Sun. 26th Nov. and not 25 Nov. as stated by the council.
You would ask that the authority consider their position in this
matter and accept that payment of £70 (which the council
acknowledge was made on 26 Nov.) discharges the owner's legal
obligation in this matter.
#Post#: 27583--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: RhysGrif
Date: June 26, 2024, 12:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Great news.
>
> Write back.
>
> Thank them for replying so quickly and clarifying that a NTO
was posted on THURSDAY 26 October 2023. However, you can see
that the error made by the authority in 2023 has been repeated
in their last reply with their inability to calculate 28-day
periods as follows:
>
> Date of posting: Thursday 26 Oct.
> Date deemed served: Monday 30th October.
> Latest date of the 28-day period beginning on date of service:
Sun. 26th Nov. and not 25 Nov. as stated by the council.
>
> You would ask that the authority consider their position in
this matter and accept that payment of £70 (which the council
acknowledge was made on 26 Nov.) discharges the owner's legal
obligation in this matter.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hello,
So I would I be correct in saying that they have confirmed that
the document was posted on 26th and not 25th therefore giving me
a 28 day period of 27th November due to the working day falling
on the Monday.
#Post#: 27641--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 26, 2024, 5:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I would suggest you want to start drafting your OOT application.
If you can get this accepted and the matter is referred to the
tribunal, I have little doubt you can get the £70 refunded.
Depending on how much of a fuss the council makes, you might
even get a costs order.
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